Immigration Bill proposed

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I guess "free market" isn't an American ideal anymore.

The only remotely realistic solution to the immigration problems is Real ID.  A national licensing system for the right to work, that is easy and fast to verify.  Anything else is a waste of money, like a 2000 mile fence or swelling yet another Federal Agency to titanic proportions. 

I guess "liberty" isn't an American ideal anymore, either.

Sigh...

Deprive people of the economic incentive, and they won't come.  But you can't do that without a de facto Real ID, and I've seen how popular national identification is on these boards....

Are you certain that this can't be done without Real ID?  Have you actually given the matter any thought?

[De Selby]

Headless,

Yes, I've given the matter some thought.  There isn't another solution that won't involve either:

A) A ridiculous, impossible to maintain, expensive to build fence in the middle of the desert.

or

B) Massive federal spending on law enforcement.  The amount of investment required to arrest, try (since we don't let LE just grab anyone and throw them out of the country), and then deport millions of people would make it like the war on drugs times two.

Edit:

That's not saying I like real ID.  Ideally, people would learn to accept minimally effective border control and employment verification, and just live with the fact that a number of people will make it past the checks...and also that there is a need for labor that could be met with immigration reform.  But I doubt that's going to get a lot of people waiving fists and doing chants.

[CAnnoneer]

Care to provide any substance to back up your "ridiculous" assertion? 

If you open the border, tens of millions will move here over a very short time for fear that we'll come to our senses and close the flood gets before they have the chance. Exactly where are they going to live? Who will employ them? What will happen to our infrastructure and communications? Who will pay for the extra services and policing necessary?

We do not live in the 18th or 19th century so any immigrant from anyplace can just come and head for the frontier and be self-sufficient and just grow or hunt or mine something or die trying. Look at our own illegals now. They require emergency services and education, they expect modern living conditions, they unionize, they garner support from politicians and racists. Multiply that by 100x and maybe you'll get a picture of the scope of the problem "open borders" will produce.

It has to be realized that our society is far more complicated and is getting more so, than one that is compatible with the self-sufficient frontiersman spirit that is the ideological underpinning of purist libertarianism. To apply it to a modern industrial society successfully is impossible. Even if it were, the sheeple would not let you. Even if they did, the rich would not let you. Even if they did, the religious people would not let you. Even if they did, the commies and socialists would not let you. Even if they did, the corporations and their pocket politicians would not let you. You get the picture.

[Waitone]

We have a problem with illegal immigration because of economic issues.  Economics created the problem and economics will solve the problem. . .. . and without statist solutions like real ID.  All it takes is the political will, something in very short supply.  We at this point simply do not have the moral fortitude to do what is necessary.  Remove the economic incentive currently built into the system and the situation will turn around in short order.

[Perd Hapley]

A national licensing system for the right to work, that is easy and fast to verify. 

There's a right to work now?  I have a right to a job?  Sweet. 

[The Rabbi]

A national licensing system for the right to work, that is easy and fast to verify. 

There's a right to work now?  I have a right to a job?  Sweet. 

Yes you have a right to a job.  That comes under the rubric of "pursuit of happiness."  You do not have a guarantee of a job, however.  I hope I don't have to explain the distinction.

Anyway, those on the "law and order" side of the debate need to first admit that their solutions are unworkable and unrealistic and if implemented would fail to stop the problem while turning the U.S. into a police state.  Once I see that concession we can talk about what a real solution would look like.

As for CAnoneer's ridiculous assertion about 10B people moving here, once it becomes apparant that there aren't 10B jobs available and people's standard of living isn't going to improve they wont come.  That point will be reached long before even the first billion make their way.  And if there are 10B jobs then the US will experience the greatest boom in the economy ever seen.

[Manedwolf]

As for CAnoneer's ridiculous assertion about 10B people moving here, once it becomes apparant that there aren't 10B jobs available and people's standard of living isn't going to improve they wont come.  That point will be reached long before even the first billion make their way.  And if there are 10B jobs then the US will experience the greatest boom in the economy ever seen.

Of course they'll come even if there isn't jobs.

Where's a better place to steal from? A country of tens of millions of hovels, or a country of tens of millions of suburban houses stuffed with flatscreen TVs, PCs, iPods, prescription drugs, jewelry, etc?

Where's a better place to sell drugs? Where people have no money, or where there's plenty of people ready to purchase everything from ziplocs of pot to nickel bags of crack to pure cocaine and heroin, cash?

Where's a better place to need medical care, in a third-world corrupt narcostate, or a country where nobody can be turned away from an emergency room?

Of course they'll come.

Rome, anyone?

[The Rabbi]

As for CAnoneer's ridiculous assertion about 10B people moving here, once it becomes apparant that there aren't 10B jobs available and people's standard of living isn't going to improve they wont come.  That point will be reached long before even the first billion make their way.  And if there are 10B jobs then the US will experience the greatest boom in the economy ever seen.

Of course they'll come even if there isn't jobs.

Where's a better place to steal from? A country of tens of millions of hovels, or a country of tens of millions of suburban houses stuffed with flatscreen TVs, PCs, iPods, prescription drugs, jewelry, etc?

Where's a better place to sell drugs? Where people have no money, or where there's plenty of people ready to purchase everything from ziplocs of pot to nickel bags of crack to pure cocaine and heroin, cash?

Yeah, everyone knows that spics are just drug pushers and thieves.  Unlike law-abiding Americans who never steal or sell drugs.
Just like the joke about the Black woman who didnt want to marry the Mexican because she was afraid her kids would be too lazy to steal.

[Manedwolf]

As for CAnoneer's ridiculous assertion about 10B people moving here, once it becomes apparant that there aren't 10B jobs available and people's standard of living isn't going to improve they wont come.  That point will be reached long before even the first billion make their way.  And if there are 10B jobs then the US will experience the greatest boom in the economy ever seen.

Of course they'll come even if there isn't jobs.

Where's a better place to steal from? A country of tens of millions of hovels, or a country of tens of millions of suburban houses stuffed with flatscreen TVs, PCs, iPods, prescription drugs, jewelry, etc?

Where's a better place to sell drugs? Where people have no money, or where there's plenty of people ready to purchase everything from ziplocs of pot to nickel bags of crack to pure cocaine and heroin, cash?

Yeah, everyone knows that spics are just drug pushers and thieves.  Unlike law-abiding Americans who never steal or sell drugs.
Just like the joke about the Black woman who didnt want to marry the Mexican because she was afraid her kids would be too lazy to steal.

 

[The Rabbi]

Sorry, you're the one making the argument that Hispanics are thieves and drug pushers, not me.  Playing the "I'm not PC" game won't wash here.

[HankB]

I've seen assertions that illegal aliens commit, nationally, about 12 murders per day, with a similar number killed by vehicles driven by illegal aliens. If these numbers hold up, that means over 8000 Americans die because of illegal aliens every year in the USA.

That's rather more than 9/11 and several years of Gulf War II casualties combined.

Every year. 

Here's a source . . . if you don't like WND, check out the links to the original materials the story was based on, contained within the story.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

[Manedwolf]

Sorry, you're the one making the argument that Hispanics are thieves and drug pushers, not me.  Playing the "I'm not PC" game won't wash here.

Did I once use the word "hispanic" or even any deragatory reference to them? Did I even mention race? Did I mention nationality?

Nope. You're creating a strawman and putting words in my mouth. People of that sort can come from ANY third-world nation and be of ANY race and ANY ethnic background. It's a matter of culture, NOT RACE.

You go full-tilt globalism and open borders, you're exporting skilled jobs and importing poverty. If you can't defend your borders, the masses of have-nots will come in and take what you have. And the end result of that would, indeed, mirror the fate of Rome.

[Perd Hapley]

There's a right to work now?  I have a right to a job?  Sweet. 

Yes you have a right to a job.  That comes under the rubric of "pursuit of happiness."  You do not have a guarantee of a job, however.  I hope I don't have to explain the distinction.

That's an interesting position to take, in light of the following:

My position is that "rights" are simply what society says they are.  There are no inherent rights in any person.  No one has succesfully argued against this...

I believe rights are things generally agreed on by society to be so. 

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=3269.0

Now, how is it that you can argue for rights that run contrary to current law? 

[The Rabbi]

There's a right to work now?  I have a right to a job?  Sweet. 

Yes you have a right to a job.  That comes under the rubric of "pursuit of happiness."  You do not have a guarantee of a job, however.  I hope I don't have to explain the distinction.

That's an interesting position to take, in light of the following:

My position is that "rights" are simply what society says they are.  There are no inherent rights in any person.  No one has succesfully argued against this...

I believe rights are things generally agreed on by society to be so. 

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=3269.0

Now, how is it that you can argue for rights that run contrary to current law? 

You haven't shown any contradiction in my position.

[Glock Glockler]

Rabbi,

You cannot have open immigration and a welfare state.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi,

You cannot have open immigration and a welfare state.

Agreed 100%.  Do away with the welfare state.

[roo_ster]

I much prefer the Rabbi dispensing ad hominem than decrying it.  It comes across as much more heartfelt.

AS to the OP, the bill in question is a fraction of a degree removed from the Kennedy/GWB amnesty bill.  Same shinola, different package.

[CAnnoneer]

You cannot have open immigration and a welfare state.
Agreed 100%.  Do away with the welfare state.

Hehehehe. More soz-fiction from the Rabbi. So long as the poor, the old, the sick, and racial victimologists can vote, (and big business can buy politicians) good luck with that. Or are you arguing those people should not be allowed to vote?

[CAnnoneer]

As for CAnoneer's ridiculous assertion about 10B people moving here, once it becomes apparant that there aren't 10B jobs available and people's standard of living isn't going to improve they wont come.  That point will be reached long before even the first billion make their way. 

That makes as much sense as the statements:
1) "Savers realize that if they all rush the bank, the bank will collapse, so they won't rush the bank at the sight of trouble"
2) "Passengers on a sinking ship realize that if they overload the boats, they will all drown, so they will not overload the boats."
3) "Spectators in an overcrowded stadium realize that if they all run for the gates in an emergency, they will likely get squished by the crowd, so they will not run for the gates in an emergency."
4) "Gamblers in Las Vegas know that the game is crooked in favor of the House, and so they expect to lose on average, so no particular gambler will come to Vegas trying to strike it rich."

People will voluntarily stop coming here (legally or illegally) only when here becomes as bad as where they come from.

Taking into account most of the rest of the world is an unspeakable toilet, the corollary is that the Rabbi's proposal will only work when the US becomes the same unspeakable toilet.

[Manedwolf]

People will voluntarily stop coming here (legally or illegally) only when here becomes as bad as where they come from.

Taking into account most of the rest of the world is an unspeakable toilet, the corollary is that the Rabbi's proposal will only work when the US becomes the same unspeakable toilet.

THANK you. Well said!

[De Selby]

People who want easy welfare and social programs would be ill advised to come to the United States-of all the industralized countries, our social programs are easily the worst.  Canada, right there next door, is an infinitely better place to live for people who want welfare.

I have yet to see a realistic proposal from anyone for stopping immigration.  Instead of ragging on the Rabbi for highlighting your problems, maybe you should all try and propose something workable to solve your perceived threat from immigration.

[Sindawe]

I have yet to see a realistic proposal from anyone for stopping immigration.

Its NOT about stopping IMMIGRATION.  Its about stopping ILLEGAL immigration.  Legal immigrants are screened for criminal backgrounds and infectious diseases like multidrug resistant TB and extensively drug resistant TB.  Those crossing the border illegally are not screened until they hit the hospitals for some need. 

[De Selby]

Sindawe,

Okay, so would you support changing the law to make most current illegal immigration, legal?

What if we just said "anyone who wants to can come from Mexico if you undergo a criminal background check and a health check?"  The cost would be cheaper than paying a human smuggler, so there's no reason why people wouldn't come legally then...

How about that plan?

[mtnbkr]

I don't have any particular aversion to foreigners moving to the US.  Most are good, hardworking folks.  My wife's previous OBY/GYN was Nigerian and she was terribly unhappy to lose him when we had to leave KP.  My cousin married a Mexican-American (first gen US citizen).  My wife and I visited Mexico for our honeymoon and want to go back for another trip one day. 

On the job front, I'm in no danger of losing my job to a "mexican" since the skill and clearance requirements are so high.  If a "mexican" took my job, it was because he beat me skillwise and managed to get the appropriate clearances.  "Jose" at the local 7-11 isn't a threat to me in that manner.  I have worked with Mexican expats prior to getting into the govt side of the industry, but those guys were just as good as their American counterparts and here legally.

That said...

Illegal Hispanics are making a mess of Northern Virginia.  I live in a town with a high immigrant population (mostly Hispanic).  My neighborhood is largely Hispanic.  You can tell the homes Hispanics live in by the trash and general unkempt nature (El Tejon, you listening?).  You can also tell which ones have multiple families living in one house by the mountain of trash put out each trash day.  Most families put out 1-2 cans once or twice a week.  These homes put out 4-5 each trash day.  Frequently, rather than walk 10ft to a trashcan (we have 1-2 per block), they'll dump trash from their cars straight onto the street.  I've seen this personally and have even confronted the people doing this.  I get blank stares at best.  In order to maintain some neatness on our street, I frequently pick up any bottle, can, wrapper, etc while walking my dog and drop it off at the next can.  It's completely normal for there to be one or two derelict cars on our street.  Sometimes, they're repaired and driven, sometimes they get towed.  There's absolutely no respect for property either.  If you park on the street, their kids may play on your car.  If your yard is between them and their destination, they'll walk a path into your lawn rather than follow the sidewalk around the block.  All around town, you can see their favorite "commuting routes" because you see the paths walked into the grass as much as 3" deep.  I've seen paths created to avoid a curve in the sidewalk.  FWIW, I only see Hispanics walking these paths.  I've heard stories from folks that live near the new "migrant work center" in Herndon that they've caught illegals crapping in their yard (as in trousers down, squatting). 

The only thing that seems to keep our neighborhood from becoming a total dump is the HOA.  While I hate them in principle, they have served a purpose here.  Lest you think this is a low income neighborhood, we're not.  The townhomes range in price from the low $300k range up to just over $400k, but that doesn't stop a renter who can pool his cash with 10 of his best buddies.

I understand cultural differences, but that doesn't mean I want to live among them in that manner.  It's not hard to pick up your own garbage, respect property rights, and keep your kids under control.  I manage to do it daily, as do my neighbors.

If that makes me racist, then so be it.  I'm not as uptight as El Tejon regarding homes, etc, but I do expect folks to at least keep their mess to themselves.

Chris

[The Rabbi]

I dont understand Mtnbiker's point.  Do people suddenly become clean living respectful people when they come here legally and dirty disrepectful people if they come illegally?  Of the 5 Mexican families living in one house, how many are legal and how many illegal?  Can anyone tell?
It seems like a red herring to say "'those people' shouldn't be allowed to move here because they live in a dirty manner I find offensive."  That isn't an anti-illegal immigrant argument.  It is an anti any immigrant argument.
That said, most places have zoning ordinances etc that are supposed to police trash, working on cars, crapping on lawns etc.