Author Topic: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident  (Read 40952 times)

Jim147

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #300 on: December 01, 2021, 05:48:02 PM »
If the hammer was cocked back, it doesn't take much pressure on the trigger.

Unless something is broke you still need to pull the trigger. I worked on the trigger pull on my SAA but you still know you pulled it.
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Hawkmoon

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #302 on: December 01, 2021, 06:43:59 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-says-did-not-pull-trigger-rust-shooting

Quote
"The trigger wasn’t pulled. I didn’t pull the trigger," Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos.

He adds: "No, no, no, no, I would never point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger. Never."

In earlier movies, Baldwin has exhibited frighteningly poor trigger finger discipline. He may not think he pulled the trigger, but a Colt 1873 has a much shorter trigger stroke than a double action, and much lighter. Someone who automatically puts their finger on the trigger when they pick up or point a gun could VERY easily pop off a round without intending to.

If that's what happened, it's not "an accident." It's negligence. Since it killed one person and wounded another, it's (IMHO) criminal negligence.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 09:07:17 PM by Hawkmoon »
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MechAg94

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #303 on: December 01, 2021, 06:51:20 PM »
Unless something is broke you still need to pull the trigger. I worked on the trigger pull on my SAA but you still know you pulled it.
I agree with you, but someone like Baldwin might convince himself he didn't. 
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #304 on: December 01, 2021, 06:53:11 PM »
Even if broke he would still would have to had to pull back the hammer. Why would he pull back the hammer unless he intended to fire?
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #305 on: December 01, 2021, 06:55:33 PM »
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?
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griz

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #306 on: December 01, 2021, 07:43:34 PM »
The more examples we have of anti-gunners ideas of how guns work, the more it seems that when they demand "smart guns" they mean a gun that will read your mind.
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Fly320s

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #307 on: December 01, 2021, 07:45:42 PM »
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?

It is my opinion that Baldwin could not be bothered to learn the finer points of gun handling and safety.  I bet he was "above" that level of instruction.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #308 on: December 01, 2021, 09:18:21 PM »
I'm too lazy to look at IMDB. Has Baldwin done westerns before, where he would have handled a single action revolver? Or is part of what he is dong here, possibly with legal consult, setting himself up to claim to know nothing about the firearm type so the firearms people can take the blame for not training him properly?

Don't know about any of his other movies. The only other one I've seen him in was The Hunt for Red October. Toward the end, there's a scene in which he crawls along an overhead electrical cable tray to confront the saboteur who is about to blow up the ship. He is carrying an M1911A1, and as he crawls along the cable tray -- with no target in sight -- his finger is on the trigger.

@ 00:14   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaBIMuW74Q

Of course, that movie was a long time ago. He could have learned better trigger discipline since then -- but he's such an arrogant dolt that I doubt he has done so. Old habits are hard to break.


One of the rookie armorer's complaints has been that the production team (headed by Baldwin) rejected her requests for more training time. This could come down to a classic "He said" -- "She said" standoff.
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #309 on: December 02, 2021, 09:20:13 AM »
I'm thinking the rich and powerful on that set are setting things up for a pawn (likely the armorer) to take a fall.

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/02/guns-dont-just-go-off-santa-fe-county-sheriff-questions-alec-baldwins-account-of-the-rust-shooting/

Now Halls also has said the trigger wasn't pulled, and they are bringing up "the hammer was pulled back", maybe to make it sound like it was placed on the cart that way. Which should make no difference since both Hall and Baldwin should have seen that. Unless they are playing the "I'm just the actor, it's not my responsibility" card.
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lee n. field

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #310 on: December 02, 2021, 09:45:00 AM »
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #311 on: December 02, 2021, 09:55:39 AM »
Just for covering both sides in the "didn't pull the trigger" discussion:

Quote
Stephen Gutowski
@StephenGutowski
As some in the mentions have pointed out, Pietta still makes replicas without transfer bars. I certainly hope they weren't using a gun like that on set. But, it does increase the chances of the gun firing without the trigger being pulled. I still find it unlikely.

I guess also this:

https://youtu.be/ldHPNnsp-cs?t=141

The Hikock45 video has me wondering if the actors aying "hammer back" meant that the hammer was in the half cock position?
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #312 on: December 03, 2021, 08:32:52 AM »
I just saw a snippet of Baldwins interview. I tried searching for the video clip but couldn't find the part of the clip Fox Business showed this morning. All the other clips stopped just before he said:

Quote
I pulled the hammer back as far as I could without cocking it, I asked her "does that work? Does that work? She said yes, I let go of the hammer and bang!

He also holds himself blameless for the incident. Given the Hikock45 clip I posted above, and that some Piettas apparently are made without a transfer bar, this might be an interesting quote going forward.

Here's one video where he holds himself blameless:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/03/narcissistic-sociopath-alec-baldwin-says-he-feels-no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #313 on: December 03, 2021, 08:41:44 AM »
I just saw a snippet of Baldwins interview. I tried searching for the video clip but couldn't find the part of the clip Fox Business showed this morning. All the other clips stopped just before he said:

Quote
I pulled the hammer back as far as I could without cocking it, I asked her "does that work? Does that work? She said yes, I let go of the hammer and bang!

He also holds himself blameless for the incident. Given the Hikock45 clip I posted above, and that some Piettas apparently are made without a transfer bar, this might be an interesting quote going forward.

Considering how short the trigger pull is on a SAA, if he had his finger in the trigger window, he had the trigger pulled when he cocked the hammer. So, when he released the hammer -- it fell, discharging the round.

So, what I've said all along: he cocked the hammer, and he pulled the trigger. As producer, he's one of the people who [allegedly] nixed the armorer chic's request to conduct firearms safety training. Although, given Baldwin's arrogance and inflated sense of self-importance, if she had been allowed to conduct [more?] training, I'm sure he either would have exempted himself or he would have yawned his way through it and not paid any attention.

My opinion remains unchanged: negligent discharge ==> person dies ==> negligent homicide.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #314 on: December 03, 2021, 08:45:52 AM »
Wouldn't be surprised there's video of this they're hiding and/or destroyed. Not saying there is just that I wouldn't be surprised.
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #315 on: December 03, 2021, 08:46:00 AM »
The reload has a good explanation that suggests the probability is a finger on the trigger:

https://thereload.com/analysis-yes-alec-baldwins-gun-could-have-fired-without-him-pulling-the-trigger/
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #316 on: December 03, 2021, 09:03:29 AM »
He also holds himself blameless for the incident.


Yep

Quote
Baldwin told George Stephanopoulos that he felt no guilt over the death of “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and it’s not his fault:

    .@GStephanopoulos: "Do you feel guilt?"

    Alec Baldwin: “No. Someone is responsible for what happened and I can’t say who that is, but I know it’s not me.”

    READ MORE: https://t.co/zYugqKhIVW #BaldwinABC pic.twitter.com/97F9wOYYTT

    — ABC News (@ABC) December 3, 2021
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/12/03/narcissistic-sociopath-alec-baldwin-says-he-feels-no-guilt-over-the-death-of-halyna-hutchins-a/
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Boomhauer

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #317 on: December 03, 2021, 09:08:06 AM »
Nothing in this goddamn country is the person who did it’s fault. It’s ALWAYS somebody else’s fault for anything and everything. I’m sick of that attitude that infects everything.

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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #318 on: December 03, 2021, 09:14:56 AM »
Even if the gun "malfunctioned" there's still the base issues of how did live ammo find it way into the gun, why were the required checks not preformed, and why was live ammo even allowed on the set in the first place? There is abundant evidence of a lack of firearm safety by several parties, including Baldwin, on set and Baldwin as producer bears at least some responsibility for that.

Murphy will often find a way but don't make things easy for him.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 03:28:58 PM by WLJ »
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MechAg94

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #319 on: December 03, 2021, 09:22:41 AM »
This morning I heard someone mention that there is ammo used on set that is supposed to be blank ammo, but looks like real ammo when the camera looks at the gun from the front.  Someone on the stream I was listening to said they weren't supposed to have primers.  That gets into people guessing about what happened, but it was an interesting adder.  The main comment of that stream was there appeared to be no reason for the gun to be pointed at anyone. 
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cordex

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #320 on: December 03, 2021, 09:26:38 AM »
Even if the gun "malfunctioned" there's still the base issues of why was live ammo even allowed on the set in the first place, how did live ammo find it way into the gun, and why were the required checks not preformed? There is abundance evidence of a lack firearm safety by several parties, including Baldwin, on set and Baldwin as producer bears at least some responsibility for that.
This.

It was the armorer's job to ensure the guns were safe for the necessary scenes.  Sometimes scenes require a gun to be pointed at someone, or the camera (as appears to be the case here).  There are apparently other layers of checks that were also neglected, but ultimately the armorer was the "expert" and in charge of the guns.  For some unfathomable reason, live ammo was allowed on the set and somehow got into the guns.  Positive control was not maintained by the armorer, live ammo got into the gun, and she did not inspect it prior to its use in the scene.  All on her.

That said, it also looks like an incompetent armorer was hired.  Whoever made that call (likely Baldwin?) shares the blame as far as that goes.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #321 on: December 03, 2021, 03:27:13 PM »
    This morning I heard someone mention that there is ammo used on set that is supposed to be blank ammo, but looks like real ammo when the camera looks at the gun from the front.  Someone on the stream I was listening to said they weren't supposed to have primers.  That gets into people guessing about what happened, but it was an interesting adder.  The main comment of that stream was there appeared to be no reason for the gun to be pointed at anyone.

    That's a misunderstanding. The dummy rounds are not "blanks," they are dummy rounds. They are loaded with a bullet, but no powder charge, and they are supposed to have a hole drilled in the case and a BB inside so that, when shaken, anyone can hear the BB and know that it's a dummy round.

    I don't know if Hollywood dummy rounds have primers but my guess would be not. Even if they do, the primer alone probably wouldn't fire a 255-grain bullet with enough force to shoot THROUGH one person and seriously wound a person standing behind her.

    From what I've read about movie set gun safety, there are (among others) two safety rules that had to be violated here:
    • NEVER point a gun AT another person -- point it just off target so that, if there is an unintended discharge, the bullet won't strike the person
    • When the script calls for a gun to be pointed at the camera, the camera is supposed to be behind a bullet-proof shield
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    230RN

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    Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
    « Reply #322 on: December 03, 2021, 03:45:42 PM »
    Hawlmoon noted significantly:

    "Considering how short the trigger pull is on a SAA, if he had his finger in the trigger window, he had the trigger pulled when he cocked the hammer. So, when he released the hammer -- it fell, discharging the round."

    This trigger-not-pulled thing is called Brasping at Straws.  BS for short.

    And he was not pointing the gun at anyone; the wind blew the muzzle toward the victims.

    Hell, any nonsense a lawyer can throw at the jury for POC ("Purposes Of Confusion") is a good strategy,

    Right?
    « Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 05:15:33 PM by 230RN »

    Brad Johnson

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    Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
    « Reply #323 on: December 03, 2021, 05:59:19 PM »
    There's a reason why you only carry five rounds in a Peacemaker and a non-transfer bar clone. Especially ones with a worn sear. I could easily see a cheapo knock-off, one made with softer metals and used as a movie prop that's been cycled a billion times, having a sear that's pretty much worn almost smooth.

    That, or he had his finger on the damn trigger. Likely he didn't consciously pull it because he didn't have to, it was already in firing position from the piss-poor way he was holding it. All thumbing the hammer back did was complete the process.

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    Jim147

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    Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
    « Reply #324 on: December 03, 2021, 06:06:25 PM »
    Wondering if he had been practicing fanning. The hammer would already be pulled.
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