Author Topic: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident  (Read 71416 times)

zxcvbob

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #575 on: June 16, 2023, 02:39:47 PM »
That's gonna be a hard case to make or win if FBI forensics broke the gun already.

That was probably intentional.  They don't want to win the case, they just want the PR for bringing it.  So let the FBI destroy the evidence first.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #576 on: June 16, 2023, 11:57:25 PM »
But the FBI "broke" the gun.  [tinfoil]


Quote
The FBI analyzed the gun last year, and broke it during a test firing. In a recent court filing, Morrissey and Lewis said that the gun has been sent to an independent expert for further testing.

That's interesting, because early on in this case the news reported that the gun wasn't functional when the FBI received it, and that the Fibbies had repaired it in order to test it.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #577 on: June 22, 2023, 09:11:25 PM »
Armorer charged with evidence tampering and for the transfer of narcotics

Rust shooting: Prosecutors charge armorer with evidence tampering
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65993965
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #578 on: August 05, 2023, 01:21:54 AM »
Guttierez-Reed has waived a preliminary hearing. Her attorneys have moved for dismissal, and the judge doesn't appear inclined to do that, so she's headed for a trial.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4138686-rust-armorer-waives-preliminary-hearing/

My early thoughts that she was being used as a scapegoat have moderated as more information has come out. However, "at the end of the day" it was Alec Baldwin who held the gun, cocked the gun, aimed the gun at the cinematographer, and pulled the trigger. All in violation of industry protocols, and without following industry protocols about verifying that the gun was loaded with dummy rounds. While Ms. Guttierez-Reed probably does bear some responsibility, at the end of the day it was Alec Baldwin who shot and killed one person and wounded a second. There is NO way he should be able to walk away from that.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 01:56:02 PM by Hawkmoon »
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MechAg94

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #579 on: August 05, 2023, 12:29:55 PM »
Did she load the gun?  She certainly didn't point it or pull the trigger.   

I was thinking she is negligent, but I am not sure if she was criminally negligent.  She was not doing her job, but she didn't shoot the lady. 
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cordex

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #580 on: August 05, 2023, 01:40:32 PM »
Did she load the gun?  She certainly didn't point it or pull the trigger.   

I was thinking she is negligent, but I am not sure if she was criminally negligent.  She was not doing her job, but she didn't shoot the lady.
Her job was to make sure no one got shot.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #581 on: August 05, 2023, 02:09:36 PM »
Her job was to HELPmake sure no one got shot.

FIFY

The industry protocols, just like the NRA and Cooper's rules for safe handling of firearms, establish overlapping standards which should prevent an accidental/negligent shooting even in the event that one step is overlooked. In this instance, multiple steps were overlooked and violated by multiple people. It was not solely the job of the armorer to make sure no one got shot.

So far, I don't think we know who loaded the gun, or when or where it was loaded. We DO know that the industry protocol was for the armorer to load it IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR AND THE ACTOR WHO WOULD BE HANDLING THE GUN, physically shaking each round before loading it so that all three people could verify that the rounds were dummies. That didn't happen here. It was the AD's and Baldwin's joint responsibility to ensure that this protocol was followed. The AD has already made a plea deal. Baldwin continues to deny any responsibility.

Several [apparently all loaded] revolvers were left on a cart, unattended, on the set while Guttierez-Reed was not allowed on that part of the set, allegedly due either to COVID restrictions, or because they had her doing unrelated assistant prop master duties elsewhere on the set. The AD just grabbed one of those unattended guns and pronounced it a "cold gun" without making any attempt to verify its condition. As noted, he has already been convicted. Baldwin accepted the gun, also making no effort or attempt to verify its condition, even though it was obvious that the armorer wasn't present and that the gun had not been loaded in accordance with the safety protocols.

There's plenty of blame to go around. It was clearly not her fault alone. I feel that most of the responsibility and liability belong on Baldwin, both because it was ultimately he who pointed a loaded gun at a person and pulled the trigger, and also because it was his responsibility as producer to ensure that safety protocols were followed.
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cordex

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #582 on: August 05, 2023, 08:15:46 PM »
The armorer’s job is considerably more than to “help” make sure no one gets shot. Yes, there are layers of protection, but they are supposed to be the primary party responsible for weapons safety.

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #583 on: August 16, 2023, 01:42:37 PM »
CNN: charges may be re-filed.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/entertainment/rust-shooting-gun-report-alec-baldwin/

Quote
CNN
 —
Independent testing on the weapon used in the fatal 2021 shooting on the set of the film “Rust” shows the trigger had to be pulled, the gun fired normally and it did not malfunction, according to a report filed in court, raising the possibility charges could be refiled against actor Alec Baldwin.

“The fired evidence cartridge is the consequence of a normal hammer fall from the fully cocked position of the hammer,” the report compiled by Forensic Science Services of Arizona states.

The report was filed as part of a defense motion on behalf of the film’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed, who is charged with tampering with the gun used in the shooting as well as two counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Baldwin has maintained he pulled back the gun’s hammer as far as he could without cocking the gun and released the hammer – but did not pull the trigger. CNN’s calls to him for comment on the report were not immediately returned.

"pulled back the hammer as far as he could without cocking the gun"?  Huh?
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #584 on: August 16, 2023, 02:58:00 PM »
It's been reported that the FBI had to repair the firearm before they could test it.  I'm thinking that screws up any chance of the charges being refiled as it amounts to tampering with evidence, even if done in good faith.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #585 on: August 16, 2023, 03:04:23 PM »
It's been reported that the FBI had to repair the firearm before they could test it.  I'm thinking that screws up any chance of the charges being refiled as it amounts to tampering with evidence, even if done in good faith.

The fact the FBI had to "repair" the gun is almost enough to make me think someone did something to the gun to try to make it look like it malfunctioned
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230RN

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #586 on: August 16, 2023, 03:10:29 PM »
...
So far, I don't think we know who loaded the gun, or when or where it was loaded. We DO know that the industry protocol was for the armorer to load it IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR AND THE ACTOR WHO WOULD BE HANDLING THE GUN, physically shaking each round before loading it so that all three people could verify that the rounds were dummies. That didn't happen here. It was the AD's and Baldwin's joint responsibility to ensure that this protocol was followed. The AD has already made a plea deal. Baldwin continues to deny any responsibility.
...

What the...?

That test would be definitive for many (not all) center fire rifle rounds, with their granular powder. Most pistol powders are pretty fluffy and nothing would be heard or felt in shaking them.  Whomever made up that rule didn't know enough to create that rule.

A..holes all.

Terry, 230RN


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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #587 on: August 16, 2023, 03:24:28 PM »
What the...?

That test would be definitive for many (not all) center fire rifle rounds, with their granular powder. Most pistol powders are pretty fluffy and nothing would be heard or felt in shaking them.  Whomever made up that rule didn't know enough to create that rule.

A..holes all.

Terry, 230RN

I'm going to guess Hollywood blanks may be loaded up a bit differently than standard rounds. I do know "prop" semi and full autos have to be modified to run with them
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cordex

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #588 on: August 16, 2023, 03:31:20 PM »
That test would be definitive for many (not all) center fire rifle rounds, with their granular powder. Most pistol powders are pretty fluffy and nothing would be heard or felt in shaking them.  Whomever made up that rule didn't know enough to create that rule.
Or you don't understand it well enough to critique it.

They're not shaking the cartridges to hear the powder.  Dummy rounds are loaded with BBs in the casing so that they can be readily identified.

zxcvbob

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #589 on: August 16, 2023, 03:41:50 PM »
You can see the 4 of the bullets from the front in a 6-shot revolver.  Blanks wouldn't look right.  So they load dummy cartridges with either a big hole in the side of the case or BBs where the powder should go.  (I don't know what they do for the primer; a spent primer perhaps)  The dummy cartridge has to be readily identifiable as such.  Blank rounds are different.  Since the cylinder rotates, maybe they never show a gun from the front if its going to fire blanks; I dodn't know how that works.

In this day and age, they should be nonfunctional cap guns and the gunshots and flash added in post-production.  (the cap is just for a bit of realism on the set)
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #590 on: August 16, 2023, 05:55:49 PM »
Or you don't understand it well enough to critique it.

They're not shaking the cartridges to hear the powder.  Dummy rounds are loaded with BBs in the casing so that they can be readily identified.

Whoops!  Missed / forgot that.  Thanks.  Now I wonder, if they're going to use blanks, as opposed to bulleted unpowdered cases, there won't be BBs in the case, right?

So there were either (a) live bulleted rounds in it; (b) dummy bulleted rounds with BBs in it; (c) blank rounds, readily identifiable if you look at them in it; (d) the gun was empty.

So he expected b or c or d without checking himself, as protocol required.

OK, all clear now.

Terry


« Last Edit: August 16, 2023, 06:16:23 PM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #591 on: August 16, 2023, 09:57:36 PM »
What the...?

That test would be definitive for many (not all) center fire rifle rounds, with their granular powder. Most pistol powders are pretty fluffy and nothing would be heard or felt in shaking them.  Whomever made up that rule didn't know enough to create that rule.

A..holes all.

Terry, 230RN

You haven't read enough about Hollywood dummy rounds. They're supposed to have a steel ball inside so they make a distinctive rattle when shaken. You're not listening for powder sloshing around inside, you're listening for the metallic sound of the BB.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #592 on: August 16, 2023, 10:02:56 PM »
Whoops!  Missed / forgot that.  Thanks.  Now I wonder, if they're going to use blanks, as opposed to bulleted unpowdered cases, there won't be BBs in the case, right?

So there were either (a) live bulleted rounds in it; (b) dummy bulleted rounds with BBs in it; (c) blank rounds, readily identifiable if you look at them in it; (d) the gun was empty.

So he expected b or c or d without checking himself, as protocol required.

OK, all clear now.


Not c.

It was a blank round that killed Brandon Lee. Unfortunately, a previous round had lodged the bullet from a squib load in the barrel and nobody picked up on it. The gun was subsequently loaded with blanks, and the blank round had enough energy to fire the bullet from the barrel and kill Brandon.

That's why on film sets they are NEVER supposed to point a firearm directly at another person -- one of the safety protocols that were created specifically to avoid a repetition of the Brandon Lee accident.

Baldwin claims he was told it was a "cold gun," and nobody has (that I've read) disputed that. A cold gun is either unloaded, or loaded with dummies. Blanks have powder and a primer -- they are live rounds.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #593 on: August 17, 2023, 10:34:34 AM »

That's why on film sets they are NEVER supposed to point a firearm directly at another person -- one of the safety protocols that were created specifically to avoid a repetition of the Brandon Lee accident.

Baldwin claims he was told it was a "cold gun," and nobody has (that I've read) disputed that. A cold gun is either unloaded, or loaded with dummies. Blanks have powder and a primer -- they are live rounds.

This sounds like something put in place back in the old Western days, when the actors were the likes of Gary Cooper and John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, who may not have been master class shooters but were at least better than proficient and not rabid antigun whackjobs.

You have to know how to shoot, in order to aim off target from another human.  If you're a limp wristed shooter you can think you're aiming off target and have a live round go off and send your shot right into the meat of the person you didn't mean to shoot.

I want to say at one point Baldwin even claimed he wasn't aiming at Hutchins, but to the side of her.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #594 on: August 17, 2023, 10:37:31 AM »
I want to say at one point Baldwin even claimed he wasn't aiming at Hutchins, but to the side of her.

If true not only do we have a self firing gun we have a self steering bullet in this case.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #595 on: August 17, 2023, 08:32:22 PM »
If true not only do we have a self firing gun we have a self steering bullet in this case.

Must 'a been one o' them thar self-guiding bullets that  can shoot around corners.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #596 on: August 17, 2023, 08:46:31 PM »
I don't know if I should be laughing at this or not but I went searching for the "be careful what you shoot at" scene from The Hunt For Red Oct and this popped up :rofl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEvNgHwUPF0
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #597 on: October 05, 2023, 08:31:42 AM »
Update on the armorer side of things

Quote
In the court filing, it goes on to say that, “Ms. Gutierrez alleges she made requests for additional armorer days and for additional time to provide gun handling training to Mr. Baldwin,” meaning that the “Rust” armorer had requested additional days to train Alec Baldwin on how to handle a firearm and was denied. “Ms. Gutierrez asserts that it is her belief these requests were denied for financial/budgetary reasons,” the document adds.
Quote
The state of New Mexico says that it “should be permitted to explore” if Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s requests for additional firearm training were “denied due to financial considerations” and “not due to safety or other reasonable considerations.” The State claims that the “motives” at play in the decision to deny the armorer training time are important to her criminal case as it determines how it may have affected the armorer’s ability to perform her job.

If true that could push it a bit back to Baldwin

Rust armorer claims she was denied training time
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2023/10/04/rust-armorer-claims-n75640
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #598 on: October 05, 2023, 11:30:19 AM »
Update on the armorer side of things

If true that could push it a bit back to Baldwin

Rust armorer claims she was denied training time
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2023/10/04/rust-armorer-claims-n75640

That's not exactly new news. This was reported almost immediately after the incident. It's not surprising that she's using it as part of her defense strategy.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #599 on: October 05, 2023, 04:13:42 PM »
If true not only do we have a self firing gun we have a self steering bullet in this case.

There's an older Tom Selleck movie with those, Runaway.
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