Author Topic: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident  (Read 42418 times)

Boomhauer

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2021, 05:28:57 PM »
Let’s say I have no experience

I walk into a gun store and pick up a rifle off the surplus rack and point it at another customer. Bad, right?

Even worse I pull the trigger.

An incompetent gunstore employee left a live round in the chamber from when it was traded in and that customer dies. My fault for grossly violating the safety rules. My fault for pulling the trigger.

Why is it different for Alec Baldwin because it happened on a movie set? It doesn’t matter who is handling it a real live gun shouldn’t be pointed at somebody. If an actor is going to work with live weapons then they need to be briefed, educated, and trained in the safety rules. Not horse playing around with a real gun




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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2021, 05:30:03 PM »
I have to disagree with those of you who don't think Baldwin bears much (or any) responsibility. He's a veteran  actor. He has handled guns in other movies. The protocol in movies is that if the script calls for a shooter to shoot someone, the shooter aims just to one side of the victoim, so that even if the wad from the blank travels that far the victim won't (in theory) get injured.

BUT ... this wasn't during filming. So why was he handling a gun? Why was his finger on the trigger? Why did he pull the trigger?

And if the gun was a cowboy six shooter, it's a single action. That means he had to intentionally pull back the hammer to cock it, and then pull the trigger -- while pointing it at his director of photography.

Sorry -- the armorer certainly screwed up, but IMHO that doesn't absolve Baldwin of all responsibility. Firearms safety rules overlap specifically so that if one rule is broken, the other should still prevent a tragedy. In order for this to have happened, multiple rules had to have been broken by multiple people.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2021, 05:35:01 PM »
AFAIK, we don't know if it was during filming or not.  I'm not following the story that closely so I may have missed something.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2021, 05:42:42 PM »
As to when it happened:
The tragedy occurred Thursday afternoon during filming of a gunfight that began in a church that is part of the old Western town at the ranch. Baldwin’s character was supposed to back out of the church, according to production notes.

The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.

Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor.

Why is it different for Alec Baldwin because it happened on a movie set?
Because actors and producers have realized they don't know enough to handle guns safely and have hired experts to do so for them. There are people who's entire job is to make sure the guns are safe, they take on that responsibility so the actors don't have to. Cordex described it pretty well earlier in the thread.

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2021, 05:46:35 PM »
Let’s say I have no experience

I walk into a gun store and pick up a rifle off the surplus rack and point it at another customer. Bad, right?

Even worse I pull the trigger.

An incompetent gunstore employee left a live round in the chamber from when it was traded in and that customer dies. My fault for grossly violating the safety rules. My fault for pulling the trigger.


Ordered a used Saiga from a certain well know internet gun store and had it shipped to my LGS. When I went in to pick it up the shop owner hadn't taken it out of the box yet and hands the box to me. So I open the box, pull out the rifle which by the way had the magazine inserted and I instinctively out of habit pull back the bolt handle to check the chamber and out pops a round out of the chamber. Shop owner stops what he was doing and asks did that come out of that gun? I answer yes and also it appears the mag is fully loaded as well. In other words they shipped a chambered rifle with a fully loaded magazine. The most crazy part? The rifle was more than likely sitting in their used gun rack on the showroom floor like that just waiting for someone to pick it up and pull the trigger.  :facepalm: I know that store, I've been in it several times, used rifles sit out in floor racks for customers to pick up and examine
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 06:33:29 PM by WLJ »
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2021, 06:01:19 PM »
Holy crap.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2021, 07:12:08 PM »
Quote
Because actors and producers have realized they don't know enough to handle guns safely and have hired experts to do so for them. There are people who's entire job is to make sure the guns are safe, they take on that responsibility so the actors don't have to. Cordex described it pretty well earlier in the thread.

I think it's time for this to end.

I also don't think it ever existed in a more grossly incompetent and negligent environment than today when it comes to firearms proficiency.

Does anyone think Gary Cooper, John Wayne, or Clint Eastwood were as ignorant on firearms knowledge as someone like Sean Penn or Alec Baldwin?  Those 3 actors were prolific in films with guns, fired hundreds or even thousands of shots on camera, and I'm not aware of firearms related injury or homicide on one of those sets.  I'm sure there was plenty of actual plinking with live rounds that even happened between takes or to get into character or build skill and familiarity with the set weaponry.

Look at Keanu Reeves, particularly in regards to the John Wick franchise, and his extensive training he undergoes with 3-gun coaches and such while getting ready to film.  I would be shocked if Mr. Reeves didn't personally inspect his weapons and ammunition carefully when handed to him, to confirm his prop is indeed in a condition he's personally prepared to accept the consequences of his trigger presses.

Actors who are ignorant of firearms safety and go out of their way to make firearms knowledge a taboo or difficult to obtain, should be distrusted to participate in films that involve firearms use. 

Were I an actor and issued a weapon by the propmaster/armorer and told to shoot at at the camera (with a squad of technicians behind it to record everything), you can be damn sure I'm going to eject every cartridge from the system, inspect them, look the weapon over to see if it's functional or not (plugged barrel?  nonfunctional firing pin?  etc) and if I'm told to trust the blanks then I'm going to ask for a new unopened box, and go discharge some of them at a safe backstop and inspect for downrange particles (i.e. shoot at a sheet of paper at 10 feet, 25 feet, etc).  Then use the box I've personally seen to be "safe" and keep it and the weapon under joint supervision of me and the armorer, until I need it on scene.  Discharging anything in the direction of another person absent legitimate violent intent is too dangerous for anything less than personal accountability and ownership.

Have you guys all seen Penn and Teller's magic bullet trick?  Where one shoots a .38 special revolver through a glass backstop, and the other appears to catch it in his mouth?  Real guns, real projectiles.  Not quite as it seems and there is illusion going on here, most likely with deliberately mis-aligned laser sights causing them to shoot offstage rather than at each other, and slight of hand while donning protective gear.  But it's a live on-stage discharge of a .38 special cartridge with projectile.  These guys meticulously own their weapons used and take ownership of the actions done with them while entertaining an audience.  They're actors/entertainers, but they know very well what they are about when using those weapons.  If they can do it, then Alec Baldwin can bother to learn enough to determine the load status of an SAA.

Abdication of responsibility, when using a REAL gun, is just abhorrent.  I don't care if you hire police or military armorers or whatever to supervise.  No one can take away ownership of pulling the trigger.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2021, 07:30:11 PM »
I have an acquaintance who worked in Hollywood, and did some work on some popular shows, like Justified.  She told me once that more and more TV shows were switching to airsoft firearms because they are safer than blank guns for close up work, there are fewer legal issues with possession, and they are a lot cheaper to use on set.

Too bad they weren't using airsoft on this set.
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BobR

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2021, 07:34:37 PM »
A friend of mine has a daughter who is working as Assistant Director in the film industry now. I figure she probably knows procedures for firearms on the set better than me. She posted this to her Dad's facebook earlier today during a discussion about this.

Quote
Hi, member of the film industry here 👋🏻
Unless it is found that Baldwin knowingly & purposely put a live round into the weapon, this tragedy is no fault of his.
There a ton of safety protocols that prop firearms go through before they can be handed to an actor and discharged on camera.
There are firearm safety personal, stunt coordinators, prop master in charge of the prop itself and 1st ADs and Producers that are in charge of ensuring safety protocols are adhered to.
Making a joke out of set safety & spreading misinformation before information is even available to the public is incredibly insensive to everyone involved in the tragedy.
There are many many reasons why the firing of a prop weapon can go terribly wrong. But safety is the responsibility of specific ambassadors on set (Stunt Coordinator, Prop Master, 1st AD & Producers to name a few) An actor (should) be handed a prop ONLY after is cleared by the proper ambassadors show to him & fellow crew members, a test round is fired & the stunt coordinator has gone over everything with the actor. Actors do not put the round in the firearm. In fact, they are not even allowed to touch anything until is has been cleared. Once the take is complete, the firearm is IMMEDIATELY returned to the prop master for clearance. Actors do no just get to hang on to weapons between takes. Then the entire process starts over again for the next take.
Either way, an actor who was handed a prop that was cleared as safe by the proper ambassadors is not to blame. That’s not how set safety works. Just like when I was 10 & learning to shoot you & Bumpa would show me a cleared weapon before handing it to me to handle. And then show me you loaded the weapon properly before handing it off safely to
fire. Same principals are (or should be) and enacted on a film set.
And making jokes about set safety isn’t cool, It is incredibly serious business and not to be made light of. Nor is a pointing fingers as an outsider with little understanding of how a set is run.
And the reality is we have no idea what happened or who failed to keep the cast & crew safe
[/size][/size].

So a little bit of insight on how it should work.

bob

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2021, 07:36:21 PM »
I think it's time for this to end.

It probably is. CGI is good enough these days, they can use CO2 guns that just cycle the slide and fill the rest in later. The only people who are going to really freeze frame a movie to really check out the weapons are the gun nerds anyway - and they should understand that realism isn't as important as safety.
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griz

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #135 on: October 23, 2021, 07:59:19 PM »
A friend of mine has a daughter who is working as Assistant Director in the film industry now. I figure she probably knows procedures for firearms on the set better than me. She posted this to her Dad's facebook earlier today during a discussion about this.

A question for her or folks who would know:  From what I've read the director handed the gun to AB and said "cold gun".  How does she know?  Is it entirely taking the word of the prop person?  Does she check?  And wouldn't the prop person hear the cold gun declaration and immediately correct the mistake?  (even with blanks)
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cordex

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #136 on: October 23, 2021, 08:18:47 PM »
Were I an actor and …
;/
No, you wouldn’t.
You wouldn’t do extensive teardowns and maintenance on the various vehicles you used during filming.
You wouldn’t check that the food your character handed to another character to eat had been cooked properly.
You wouldn’t do those things because it isn’t your job, and they wouldn’t trust you to do them anyway.

ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #137 on: October 23, 2021, 09:33:19 PM »
;/
No, you wouldn’t.
You wouldn’t do extensive teardowns and maintenance on the various vehicles you used during filming.
You wouldn’t check that the food your character handed to another character to eat had been cooked properly.
You wouldn’t do those things because it isn’t your job, and they wouldn’t trust you to do them anyway.

This isn't about auto mechanics, cooking, or even making sure the porta-potty is clean. It is about firearm safety. The person tasked with operating the firearm is responsible for what is in the gun, where it is aimed, and what is behind the target. An actor acting or Joe Blow target shooting, hunting, etc., is responsible for any consequences as a result of discharging a firearm.

Look at the training Hally Berry and her co-star undertook when prepping for one of the 007 movies. If she can do it, so can a prima donna like AB.

I've been handed many arms. Every time I took hold of one I pointed it in a safe direction and cleared it. Only once one had a live round in it and it shook me.

I never hand a gun to anyone unless the action is open, and in the case of a revolver with a loading gate, I rotate the cylinder to show whomever is receiving the pistol that all the chambers are empty. To me it is common sense. An actor can and ought to learn how to receive a gun, clear it, and know what is put in it.

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griz

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #138 on: October 23, 2021, 09:51:28 PM »
I'll bet you've watched a TV show or movie where a cop tales a gun from a bad guy.  Does the scene still have the same feel if the actor has to unload the gun and check the ammo to see if all of it is inert?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #139 on: October 23, 2021, 10:14:57 PM »

Look at the training Hally Berry and her co-star undertook when prepping for one of the 007 movies. If she can do it, so can a prima donna like AB.


John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY
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gunsmith

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #140 on: October 23, 2021, 10:53:07 PM »
 Alec is vaccinated, don't say infowars didn't warn us about the vaccines!
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #141 on: October 24, 2021, 04:41:11 AM »
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Dang it. That's the first time in over 25 years I felt even the slightest urge to get married again.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #142 on: October 24, 2021, 08:17:28 AM »
John Wick 3, not Bond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idf6nb6FF74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unp4PaMKezY

Man, those ET Canada guys in the first link are a couple of Marys. Sadly, that's likely the attitude of the average movie goer, and to keep from veering the thread, related to why evil real guns are still so "cool" in Hollywood.

I remember seeing the Halle Berry video when it first came out, and I have to say that it turned me around about what I assumed about her. She is absolutely impressive and I think better than me with a gun.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #143 on: October 24, 2021, 08:43:20 AM »
Alec is vaccinated, don't say infowars didn't warn us about the vaccines!

Alec was a Class A Jerk long before the vaccine
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Ron

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #144 on: October 24, 2021, 08:47:37 AM »
Has it been confirmed that it was an actual live cartridge that was fired? 
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #145 on: October 24, 2021, 09:03:22 AM »
Has it been confirmed that it was an actual live cartridge that was fired?

There are only three things I think we're 100% sure of at this point
1) Something went bang
2) Someone is dead
3) Alec pulled the trigger
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 09:24:22 AM by WLJ »
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griz

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #146 on: October 24, 2021, 10:22:42 AM »
^^^  Best summary I have heard.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #147 on: October 24, 2021, 10:33:56 AM »
There are only three things I think we're 100% sure of at this point
1) Something went bang
2) Someone is dead
3) Alec pulled the trigger

I would add to that:
4) Multiple people screwed up
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #148 on: October 24, 2021, 11:27:07 AM »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #149 on: October 24, 2021, 11:40:04 AM »
I would add to that:
4) Multiple people screwed up

I don't think we know that for sure. Isn't it possible Baldwin slipped in a live round after everyone else checked the gun?
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