War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....

[charby]

Not knowing specifics, but I think it is interesting that a modern cruiser-size ship, with modern CIWS, would go down after two anti-ship missile strikes.  I wonder if both missiles struck the target or was at least one neutralized by the CIWS.  If both missiles came through the CIWS, I wonder what that means for Western navies.

I wouldn't call it modern, maybe modern from WWII era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva

The cruiser was equipped with a triple-tiered air defence system that if operated properly should have given it three opportunities to defend itself from a Neptune missile attack.[45][51] Ukrainian sources reported that the attack was supported by a Bayraktar TB2 combat drone, which distracted the Russian ship's defences.

Also, from the same Wikipedia page.

In 2020 Russian news agency TASS reported that a very "rare and important" Christian relic considered to be a part of the True Cross on which Jesus was crucified was to be kept in Moskva's chapel.[71] There was speculation after the ship's sinking—thought in 2020 to have been so unlikely that such a precious object was entrusted to it—that the relic may have gone down with the ship.

Putin thinking like Hitler? Relic of the original cross/Spear of Destiny.

[WLJ]

I'm sure it didn't help either that the ship followed the old Soviet style of putting missiles above deck anywhere they could squeeze one in. One hit and there's a good chance a rather large fireworks display will follow.

[cordex]

I'm sure it has something to do with the time period I grew up in, but the first anti-ship weapon that comes to my mind is the Exocet.  That one had several deployments against British and US warships.  From rough comparisons the Exocet and the Neptune appear to be relatively similar in payload - the Exocet having a 165kg warhead and the Neptune at 150kg.  Both are subsonic.

The Moskva was a cruiser 611 feet long and displacing 12,490 tons.

HMS Sheffield (410 feet and 4,820t) was hit by one Exocet, had its firefighting equipment damaged and was then destroyed by the resulting fire
HMS Glamorgan (520 feet, 6,300t) was hit by one Exocet and - though damaged - survived.
SS Atlantic Conveyor (civilian ship 695 feet and 14,946t) was hit by two Exocets and was destroyed by fire.
The USS Stark (455 feet and 4,200t) was hit by two Exocets and was severely damaged but was repaired and returned to service.

Thought the comparison was interesting.

[AZRedhawk44]

Not knowing specifics, but I think it is interesting that a modern cruiser-size ship, with modern CIWS, would go down after two anti-ship missile strikes.  I wonder if both missiles struck the target or was at least one neutralized by the CIWS.  If both missiles came through the CIWS, I wonder what that means for Western navies.

CIWS is only as effective as the radar feeding it, to my understanding.  Moskva supposedly had a very aged radar system, which picks up a lot of white noise from high seas and waves.  If the Neptunes skimmed close enough to the water they would be indistinguishable from the whitecaps until very close.

Larger capital ships can put the radar array higher and get more data.

[Hawkmoon]

And the Moskva had sixteen large missile tubes mounted prominently above deck, and I would assume that they were probably all loaded with HE warheads.

[WLJ]

No total has been given for the crew on board at the time - various sources estimate that it was 510.

Sevastopol’s Governor Mikhail Razvozhayev said “the crew was evacuated, they were rescued. That’s the main thing. We await our heroes in Sevastopol”.

Ilya Ponomaryov, a former Russian MP who now lives in Kyiv, alleges that just 58 crew members out of 510 survived. But it is not clear where he got that figure from.

Ukrainian reports - unconfirmed - say the ship’s captain Anton Kuprin was among those who died when the ship caught fire and blew up.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61101906?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62599bdfb1e16c43aefe6481%26Russia%20mourns%20loss%20of%20flagship%20Moskva%262022-04-15T17%3A17%3A54.616Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1f670fc3-e92c-4b19-b057-027b42c9d7a8&pinned_post_asset_id=62599bdfb1e16c43aefe6481&pinned_post_type=share

[Angel Eyes]

And the Moskva had sixteen large missile tubes mounted prominently above deck, and I would assume that they were probably all loaded with HE warheads.

... not to mention fuel.

[MechAg94]

Probably be short lived naval air battle, since the only Russian Carrier is under repairs due to damage from a crane during a refit. It's kind of crazy how many Russian navy ships are under repair or refit currently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_aircraft_carrier_Admiral_Kuznetsov

From a few of the histories that Drachinifel has mentioned on his channel, the Russian naval yards were never all that fast.  Seems I remember ships spending a lot of time getting repaired between short deployments.

[MechAg94]

And the Moskva had sixteen large missile tubes mounted prominently above deck, and I would assume that they were probably all loaded with HE warheads.

I also wonder how strict they were with stowage of reloads and other material.  Was everything in bunkers and separated properly?  I bet it wasn't. 

[MechAg94]

I'm sure it has something to do with the time period I grew up in, but the first anti-ship weapon that comes to my mind is the Exocet.  That one had several deployments against British and US warships.  From rough comparisons the Exocet and the Neptune appear to be relatively similar in payload - the Exocet having a 165kg warhead and the Neptune at 150kg.  Both are subsonic.

The Moskva was a cruiser 611 feet long and displacing 12,490 tons.

HMS Sheffield (410 feet and 4,820t) was hit by one Exocet, had its firefighting equipment damaged and was then destroyed by the resulting fire
HMS Glamorgan (520 feet, 6,300t) was hit by one Exocet and - though damaged - survived.
SS Atlantic Conveyor (civilian ship 695 feet and 14,946t) was hit by two Exocets and was destroyed by fire.
The USS Stark (455 feet and 4,200t) was hit by two Exocets and was severely damaged but was repaired and returned to service.

Thought the comparison was interesting.

Did the USS Stark have its defense system in operation when it was hit?  I seem to remember an image of that, but not any details. 

Also, since they mention the drone, I wonder if the Ukrainians were messing with them for more than just that one day to the point they were not as alert as they should have been.  Maybe ignoring contacts. 

[dogmush]

And the Moskva had sixteen large missile tubes mounted prominently above deck, and I would assume that they were probably all loaded with HE warheads.

We hope they had HE warheads.  Those big tubes are for SS-N-12 cruise missiles.  They are nuke capable. However, unless they substantially upgraded Maskva since the last time I looked at the specs, they didn't carry reloads for those things.

One thing to remember also, is while I've seen reports that two missiles hit, I haven't seen any reports on how many were fired. If they launched 12 Neptunes, and 2 got through,  that's  not too bad for the air defense.

[cordex]

Did the USS Stark have its defense system in operation when it was hit?  I seem to remember an image of that, but not any details. 

No.  Nor did it fire in response.  I believe both were identified as significant issues during the investigation.

[WLJ]

Can find the Russian warship go... stamps on ebay but for stupid prices. Would love to have one to add to my stamp collection.

[WLJ]

Ukraine put some numbers out of their dead and wounded soldiers

Zelensky says up to 3,000 Ukrainian troops dead
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61124291?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=625a359fb1e16c43aefe64fa%26Zelensky%20says%20up%20to%203%2C000%20Ukrainian%20troops%20dead%262022-04-16T04%3A07%3A41.545Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:72a194f2-c5b7-4ead-8246-0ed2acf1a73e&pinned_post_asset_id=625a359fb1e16c43aefe64fa&pinned_post_type=share

[Angel Eyes]

Russia may be "filtering" Ukrainian men for forced labor:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/mariupol-russia-forced-service-labor

I wonder if the laborers will be required to wear a special badge . . . just for old times' sake . . .

[Hawkmoon]

Russia may be "filtering" Ukrainian men for forced labor:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/mariupol-russia-forced-service-labor

I wonder if the laborers will be required to wear a special badge . . . just for old times' sake . . .

I know many here don't favor the U.S. getting directly involved in this little dust-up. I have been on the fence, severely conflicted on that question. Seeing this post, what popped into what's left of my brain was this:


   "First they came for the socialists Ukrainians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist Ukrainian.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

[cordex]

"First they came for the socialists Ukrainians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist Ukrainian.

Why does this not equally apply to every injustice in the world?

That saying has more merit regarding opposition to internal tyranny within a society than outside it. Unless your goal is perpetual war.

[Hawkmoon]

Why does this not equally apply to every injustice in the world?

That saying has more merit regarding opposition to internal tyranny within a society than outside it. Unless your goal is perpetual war.

Actually, my goal is the opposite of perpetual war. Putin is a megalomaniac. If he is allowed to succeed in Ukraine, he'll just move on to the next domino, and then the next. He's like a rabid dog, and rabid animals should be put down.

[MillCreek]

https://time.com/6165506/military-strategy-ukraine-war/

A former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO weighs in on lessons for the West.

[WLJ]

https://time.com/6165506/military-strategy-ukraine-war/

A former Supreme Allied Commander at NATO weighs in on lessons for the West.

Is it time to write the obituary for the tank on the battlefield? Will they turn out to be the battleships of the 21st century, rendered obsolete by new technologies and tactics? It is certainly time to consider reducing tank inventories (as the U.S. Marine Corps is already doing) and using the resources to move toward new systems, notably unmanned. Tanks can still be effectively employed, but must be used in a coherent combined-arms manner that includes protection of them from such “cheap kill” mechanisms.

Enter the Chieftain
Came out yesterday and I was just getting ready to post it anyway.

In short too many think for every missile you will have 1 dead tank.

No, The Tank Is Not Dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8

[WLJ]

Scratch another

Another Russian general reported dead
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61124291?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=625bd55e77811a20d37c8c64%26Another%20Russian%20general%20reported%20dead%262022-04-17T10%3A00%3A47.939Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4776e8b1-af95-402c-b1da-5512ec898a34&pinned_post_asset_id=625bd55e77811a20d37c8c64&pinned_post_type=share

[dogmush]

The tank is certainly more limited now than it was at the height of the cold war with massive combined formations ready to roll with tanks as the vanguard.

Between man portable missiles, drones, IEDs, and the like tanks are pretty vulnerable again.  For our enemies throw in helicopters and A10s.  Obviously the "armor vs. arms" pendulum moves back and forth, but right now it's definitely favoring weapons. 

Maybe it's time to build some Bolo's

[Ben]

Maybe it's time to build some Bolo's

Well, that or send in a certain Junior Diplomat from the Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne. 

[WLJ]

https://twitter.com/BormanIke/status/1515816220393713665/photo/1

[HankB]

Well, that or send in a certain Junior Diplomat from the Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne. 

Just have to avoid the bureaucrats in the Manpower Utilization Directorate, Division of Libraries and Education (MUDDLE) and see that the Motorized Equipment Depot, Division of Loans and Exchanges (MEDDLE) does its job.