Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131192 times)

Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1900 on: October 18, 2022, 01:19:04 PM »
I'm guessing the Ukrainians are trying not to be killed or enslaved.

The Russians?  To have a border of slave states, I think.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1901 on: October 18, 2022, 02:10:51 PM »
I'm guessing the Ukrainians are trying not to be killed or enslaved.

The Russians?  To have a border of slave states, I think.
Quite correct.

Russian victory means Ukraine becomes a slave state. Ukrainian victory means the Russians leave and stop shooting at them.

As for attacking Russian territory . . . just imagine if the Jews in Germany had begun fighting Hitler in the late 1930s - think of what that might have provoked.
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1902 on: October 18, 2022, 02:42:44 PM »
Attacking (recognized) Russian territory may give some tactical gains but in the end will probably just give Putin more strategic options. Like being able to declare war with no internal political opposition and full mobilization with a more motivated population.

What the hell is anyone trying to accomplish over there anyway ;/
If it is attacking infrastructure that directly affects the fighting in the Ukraine, I don't have an issue with that.  They just need to avoid going after civilians as much as possible.  I imagine that would hurt their image with countries supporting them.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1903 on: October 18, 2022, 04:16:52 PM »
While I personally wouldn't condone it, if Russia starts to win, I can't see a reason why Ukraine wouldn't try and break their moral by using something like a dirty bomb in Moscow.  They've got plenty of radioactive material.

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1904 on: October 18, 2022, 04:19:59 PM »
While I personally wouldn't condone it, if Russia starts to win, I can't see a reason why Ukraine wouldn't try and break their moral by using something like a dirty bomb in Moscow.  They've got plenty of radioactive material.

I think that would be just the excuse the Russians would need to use nukes on Ukraine.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1905 on: October 18, 2022, 04:57:02 PM »
I think that would be just the excuse the Russians would need to use nukes on Ukraine.

If the Ukraine is going to lose, what does it matter?  That's the problem with desperation.  There's plenty of pithy quotes through the ages: "Rather die on my feet than live on my knees", "Make a desert and call it Peace", "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."...take your pick.

My point is if it looks like the Russians are going to win, and at this point we all know Putin will only accept complete capitulation.  He will have to punish a vassal state for this much trouble,  The Ukrainians have nothing to lose by getting dirty.  At that point the only difference is how much of Russia is radioactive when they are done, because there won't be a Ukraine, except as a nice fiction on treaties somewhere.

Hell, I'd say Ukraine has got to be taking stock of what fissile material they have, and if it can be enriched.  It's not like a fission bomb is hard to make if you have the material.

RoadKingLarry

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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1907 on: October 18, 2022, 10:18:53 PM »
My point is if it looks like the Russians are going to win, and at this point we all know Putin will only accept complete capitulation.
I think Putin would be overjoyed to get out of Ukraine tomorrow with Crimea and the already annexed regions.

That was likely what he was going into Ukraine for initially, anyway.

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1908 on: October 18, 2022, 10:36:05 PM »
Putin wants the old USSR borders, or something roughly approximating that.  Much less and Russia, rightly or wrongly, believes they have basically indefensible borders, and they see especially the breakdown of globalization and expansion of NATO/EU members as an existential threat creating the need for said defensible borders.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1909 on: October 18, 2022, 11:07:04 PM »
Putin wants the old USSR borders, or something roughly approximating that.  Much less and Russia, rightly or wrongly, believes they have basically indefensible borders, and they see especially the breakdown of globalization and expansion of NATO/EU members as an existential threat creating the need for said defensible borders.
Maybe Russia should apply for NATO membership.  [popcorn]
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1910 on: October 18, 2022, 11:34:12 PM »
I think Putin would be overjoyed to get out of Ukraine tomorrow with Crimea and the already annexed regions.

That was likely what he was going into Ukraine for initially, anyway.
Right now, they annexed half the country including most of the oil/gas fields I think.  Probably have to force the Ukraine into a deal like that.  Might lead to "terrorism" later by Ukrainians unhappy with the plan.  Might be better off with some agreement not to admit them into NATO and help them fix their pipeline. 

I don't see the Biden Admin doing anything of the kind unless something pushes them to change their tune.
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Blakenzy

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1911 on: October 19, 2022, 10:12:12 AM »
The problem is that Ukraine can't negotiate until US-NATO says it can. So what is the Biden Administration's specific interest and objectives in the war?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1912 on: October 19, 2022, 10:16:32 AM »
The problem is that Ukraine can't negotiate until US-NATO says it can. So what is the Biden Administration's specific interest and objectives in the war?

They can't?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1913 on: October 19, 2022, 11:37:14 AM »
Have a plan ready to nationalize Starlink

Quote
David Frum
@davidfrum
It was always unreasonable, and is becoming unwise, to expect @elonmusk
 to provide Internet to Ukraine for free forever. Western allies should pay. And US should have a plan ready to nationalize Starlink fast if Musk cuts off Ukraine's connection to advance his political agenda.

David Frum fires back at all ‘the Elon-heads’ who pointed out that it would be horrible and authoritarian for the gov’t to seize Starlink
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/10/19/david-frum-fires-back-at-all-the-elon-heads-who-pointed-out-that-it-would-be-horrible-and-authoritarian-for-the-govt-to-seize-starlink/
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1914 on: October 19, 2022, 11:51:14 AM »
Cute of Frum to assume that Starlink would just continue to operate as usual once the government stole it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Blakenzy

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"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1916 on: October 19, 2022, 12:13:20 PM »
Have a plan ready to nationalize Starlink

David Frum fires back at all ‘the Elon-heads’ who pointed out that it would be horrible and authoritarian for the gov’t to seize Starlink
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2022/10/19/david-frum-fires-back-at-all-the-elon-heads-who-pointed-out-that-it-would-be-horrible-and-authoritarian-for-the-govt-to-seize-starlink/
All Elon wants is for someone to pay for it.  I am sure all the defense contractors in the US don't supply arms for free.  Trying to make it about politics when it isn't.
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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1917 on: October 19, 2022, 01:02:26 PM »
Yeah, free Starlink isn't reasonable for very long.  Eventually they will need to at least break even, and preferably make a profit.

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1918 on: October 24, 2022, 10:51:06 PM »
Haaretz is reporting that Israel attacked an Iranian drone factory near Damascus:

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2022-10-23/ty-article/.premium/israeli-strike-targeted-iranian-drone-assembly-site-near-damascus-syrian-monitor-says/00000184-0530-d736-abc7-1fb0384f0000

No word if this will affect drone deliveries to Russia.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1919 on: October 25, 2022, 10:35:00 PM »
The 101st Airborne has been deployed to Romania.

https://www.cbsnews.com/atlanta/news/ukraine-news-russia-us-army-101st-airborne-nato-war-games-romania/

(ETA: they've been there since June for training.  The CBS News article seemed to imply this was a recent development)

https://www.army.mil/article/258008/101st_airborne_division_arrives_in_europe_to_support_nato_allies

« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 11:07:50 PM by Angel Eyes »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1920 on: October 29, 2022, 03:36:07 PM »

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2022/10/29/germany-dismantles-wind-farm-to-expand-coal-mine-n506517

My first thought is "this is the most un-2022 story of 2022." But I guess it really is the story of 2022. Davos leftism is starting to unravel, because it just can't work. The Red Wave is international.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1921 on: November 01, 2022, 09:34:58 AM »
Not surprising. Some things need an eye kept on.
What would the reaction would be if Russia captured one or more?

Quote
    The Pentagon officially confirmed today that US troops are on the ground in Ukraine, allegedly performing "inspections" of US weapon caches. This information was released via anonymous media briefing. No word on whether the troops are wearing "boots" as they walk "on the ground" pic.twitter.com/ok9aAT1gDk

    — Michael Tracey (@mtracey) November 1, 2022

No big deal, just US troops on the ground (sorta like boots on the ground?) in Ukraine
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/11/01/no-big-deal-just-us-troops-on-the-ground-sorta-like-boots-on-the-ground-in-ukraine/
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 10:51:06 AM by WLJ »
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1922 on: November 01, 2022, 10:43:15 AM »
Anyone know how to say "May I have another beer please?" in Polish?  I feel like I might need to know that in 2023.

K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1923 on: November 01, 2022, 10:55:31 AM »
Beerski pleaseski?


You really think Putin's going to try to invade Poland?

I think it's pretty evident, based on what's happening in Ukraine, that an attempted incursion into Poland would be an utter disaster times 10 for Putin and Russia.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #1924 on: November 01, 2022, 11:37:31 AM »
Beerski pleaseski?


You really think Putin's going to try to invade Poland?

I think it's pretty evident, based on what's happening in Ukraine, that an attempted incursion into Poland would be an utter disaster times 10 for Putin and Russia.

No, I think I do logistics for our side, and our main logistics ports of entry are going to be Poland and somewhere on the Adriatic, and I already know how to order beer in Albania.