Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 136022 times)

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2075 on: February 12, 2023, 10:58:46 AM »
Was the Russian military this incompetent during the cold war?

I heard that the USSR was tougher.

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2076 on: February 12, 2023, 02:30:01 PM »
Was the Russian military this incompetent during the cold war?

From my historic Naval perspective I would say that they were only marginally better. They were still dangerous but not the existential threat they were made out to be.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2077 on: February 12, 2023, 03:31:55 PM »
But here’s the rub.  Ukraine itself is of little strategic value.  The Bessarabian Gap and the Polish Gap are the real goals, Ukraine is just on the way to both.  Russia might take a breather after conquering Ukraine but it WILL go on to Romania, Poland and the Baltics afterwards. 

I don't think Putin has any intention of invading a NATO country.

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2078 on: February 12, 2023, 03:40:22 PM »
I think for the west the only thing to be really concerned about is their nuclear weapons.  Assuming corruption hasn’t been as detrimental to their functional capability as their tanks.  Though, they only need like 1 in 100 to work to do massive damage and basically turn Western Europe into a nuclear wasteland.

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2079 on: February 12, 2023, 03:41:17 PM »
I don't think Putin has any intention of invading a NATO country.

If he loses in Ukraine we’ll never know.  If he wins, we shall see.

K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2080 on: February 12, 2023, 04:19:13 PM »
Being low on usable T-80s& 90s makes the tactic even more attractive to the Russians. If the 62s don't overwhelm the Us on their own roll what working 80s and 90s they have in the hope the 62s soaked up all U's anti-tank missiles.
Not saying it's going to work but such a tactic it would fit a pattern.
Putin has maybe just one more throw of the dice to end this on anything remotely in the ball park on his terms.

Except the numbers aren't working out.

The Russians are bringing T-62s back, but they can't bring them back in the numbers needed to make flood tactics even remotely successful against this generation's anti-tank missiles. Put them up against the Leopards, Challengers, and Abrams that the Ukranians are getting, and the T-62s will die like Iraqi armor did -- at distances they can't hope to either engage or even see their opponents.

Hell, even the Bradley Fighting Vehicle's Bushmaster can kill a T-62.

And let's not even being to talk about the "tactics" the Russians have used. Armor unsupported by air, artillery, infantry, or even sufficient numbers of their own armor... Essentially the Russians have been using them piecemeal, not in the flood tactics used by the Red Army in World War II.

It's almost as if the writers for The Walking Dead are the ones designing strategy for the Russians.

OK! Listen up! We're going in blind, making a LOT of noise, no personal protection, and for the love of God do NOT look to either side or behind you!
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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2081 on: February 12, 2023, 04:21:57 PM »
"If he loses in Ukraine we’ll never know."

Even if Putin wins the war in Ukraine the damage that he's done to the Russian military's capabilities, readiness, and ability to arm/rearm itself is going to take at least a generation to repair.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2082 on: February 12, 2023, 04:43:40 PM »
"If he loses in Ukraine we’ll never know."

Even if Putin wins the war in Ukraine the damage that he's done to the Russian military's capabilities, readiness, and ability to arm/rearm itself is going to take at least a generation to repair.

Their birth rate has been so low for so long the only way to have a generation to fight with in 20 years is if they start making lots and lots of babies per woman, right freaking now.  They literally would need every woman 18-35 to get pregnant, not have an abortion, and repeat that process at least 3 more times.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2083 on: February 12, 2023, 06:15:36 PM »
But here’s the rub.  Ukraine itself is of little strategic value.  The Bessarabian Gap and the Polish Gap are the real goals, Ukraine is just on the way to both.  Russia might take a breather after conquering Ukraine but it WILL go on to Romania, Poland and the Baltics afterwards. 

They could probably afford to throw away some T-62s (and their crews) taking Ukraine, but they can’t afford to be down to T-72s and T-80s if they’re going to fight NATO.  They need T-90s and T-14s for that.  Unless they just plan to nuke the *expletive deleted*ck out of NATO.
What do they think will happen if they nuke NATO? There are THREE nuclear powers there - USA, UK, and France.

And even without nukes, an attack on a NATO nation means ALL Russian forces & infrastructure WORLDWIDE will become targeted by NATO forces worldwide.

Only the Chicoms would benefit - they'd sit back and let both sides beat each other up, and then take Taiwan. And probably more - including a big chuck of far eastern Russia.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2084 on: February 12, 2023, 06:28:28 PM »
I don't think Putin has any intention of invading a NATO country.

Agree. The only way I could see something like that is if it were some kind of Russia/CCP alliance, and at that point, we're talking WW3.
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Ben

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sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2086 on: February 18, 2023, 12:51:00 PM »
If Russia wins they’ll take Moldova next.  That is, basically, the Bessarabian Gap, and not a NATO member.  Russia has been meddling hard core in that country since the fall of the Soviet Union specifically to prevent it becoming a coherent nation that can resist Russia. 

How long after that they make a play for the Polish Gap is anyone’s guess.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2087 on: February 19, 2023, 11:13:15 AM »
Enter Code Pink
Haven't seen anything about this bunch in long while

Anyhow

Wonder why they don't go to Russia and protest?

Quote
    WATCH: We ran into President Biden at dinner in DC – he can eat peace when there’s peace for the people and planet too! ✌️ #PeaceInUkraine #CubaSíBloqueoNo pic.twitter.com/QGSgDtjmrL

    — CODEPINK (@codepink) February 19, 2023
LOL: The Left eating the Left is on the menu as Code Pink crashes Biden’s DC dinner
https://twitchy.com/fuzzychimp-313137/2023/02/19/lol-the-left-eating-the-left-is-on-the-menu-as-code-pink-crashes-bidens-dc-dinner/
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Pb

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2088 on: February 19, 2023, 06:45:57 PM »
I know that Ukraine is not reporting their casualties.

How man Ukrainian soldiers do you think have been killed?

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2089 on: February 19, 2023, 08:59:24 PM »
I know that Ukraine is not reporting their casualties.

How man Ukrainian soldiers do you think have been killed?

Best estimates are that they’re inflicting casualties at about 2-3:1 on the Russians.  The Russians have had ~100k deaths which implies 33-50k Ukrainian deaths.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2090 on: February 20, 2023, 12:04:35 AM »
Best estimates are that they’re inflicting casualties at about 2-3:1 on the Russians.  The Russians have had ~100k deaths which implies 33-50k Ukrainian deaths.
Wonder what the ratio is with dead Ukrainian civilians vs dead Russian civilians. Probably pretty lopsided.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2091 on: February 20, 2023, 09:30:07 AM »
Biden has made a surprise trip to Ukraine.  His first visit since the war began.  Perhaps he is collecting his 10%.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/president-biden-makes-surprise-visit-kyiv-ukraine-meets-president-zelenskyy

Maybe if we get lucky, he'll stay for a while.  Like, forever.

If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2092 on: February 20, 2023, 09:37:09 AM »
Biden has made a surprise trip to Ukraine.  His first visit since the war began.  Perhaps he is collecting his 10%.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/president-biden-makes-surprise-visit-kyiv-ukraine-meets-president-zelenskyy

Maybe if we get lucky, he'll stay for a while.  Like, forever.

This likely won't help regarding China's upcoming decision regarding lethal aid to Russia. Potential first step to global escalation.
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2093 on: February 20, 2023, 10:11:49 AM »
This likely won't help regarding China's upcoming decision regarding lethal aid to Russia. Potential first step to global escalation.

My first thought, as well.  If you want WWIII, this is how you get WWIII.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2094 on: February 20, 2023, 11:14:25 AM »
Came across this video about Ukraine aid -

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VaOfV48OFhk

Aside from military and humanitarian aid, we're sending money to fund Ukrainian PENSIONS. Yup. Our own Social Security system is in jeopardy, but Biden found money for UKRAINIAN PENSIONS.

I think Biden made this speech sometime early last year (2022) but it's garnering more attention now.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2095 on: February 20, 2023, 11:15:42 AM »
Biden has made a surprise trip to Ukraine.  His first visit since the war began.  Perhaps he is collecting his 10%.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/president-biden-makes-surprise-visit-kyiv-ukraine-meets-president-zelenskyy

Maybe if we get lucky, he'll stay for a while.  Like, forever.

Would President Harris be better or worse?
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2096 on: February 20, 2023, 11:23:22 AM »
I heard this on the news before it hit Twitchy, and the first thing I said to myself was, "staged". There's no way the Secret Service is letting Biden stroll around in any situation where air raid sirens are legitimately going off.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2023/02/20/biden-zelenskyy-strolled-kyiv-streets-while-air-raid-sirens-blared-and-it-was-totally-not-staged/
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2097 on: February 20, 2023, 11:30:29 AM »
I heard this on the news before it hit Twitchy, and the first thing I said to myself was, "staged". There's no way the Secret Service is letting Biden stroll around in any situation where air raid sirens are legitimately going off.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2023/02/20/biden-zelenskyy-strolled-kyiv-streets-while-air-raid-sirens-blared-and-it-was-totally-not-staged/

From the Dem's point of view it would be a win win if the Russian's, even if staged, did take him out.
It would be a useful distraction and they need it
Biden becomes a war hero and out of the way at the same time.
Harris becomes pres and rides to victory in 2024 on the coattails of the war hero

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MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2098 on: February 20, 2023, 12:02:53 PM »
The WSJ is reporting that we gave Russia a heads up about the trip for deconfliction purposes.
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2099 on: February 20, 2023, 12:24:58 PM »
Would President Harris be better or worse?

A President Harris would be, "One down, one to go."  Then hopefully she would take a trip to Ukraine or some other jerkwater place that would be inclined to keep her.  One can hope, anyway.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.