Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 130940 times)

zxcvbob

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2225 on: March 27, 2023, 09:36:09 PM »
^^^  The movie was called "Dambusters" if I remember correctly.

Wasn't there was a dog in that movie?
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HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2226 on: March 27, 2023, 10:07:01 PM »
Wasn't there was a dog in that movie?
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2227 on: March 27, 2023, 10:09:01 PM »
Wasn't there was a dog in that movie?

Name starts with N

Needless to say it's gets censored out nowadays
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2228 on: March 27, 2023, 10:56:31 PM »
I don't think I heard of a movie.  Just saw documentary's on the damn busting bombs/raids on the History Channel back in the day.
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sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2229 on: March 27, 2023, 11:10:59 PM »
Name starts with N

Needless to say it's gets censored out nowadays

It was a black lab named *N i g g e r.  Yes, that was the dog’s real name.  It was also the code word for when they successfully breached the first dam.

*spaces because of the filter

K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2230 on: March 28, 2023, 05:52:51 AM »
It didn't just get censored in the movie.

The dog's name recently was removed from a memorial to 617 squadron.

And, in the age of smart munitions, you no longer need to drop a skipping stone dumb bomb like that one.

My guess is a number of Tomahawks could do the same thing, only a lot better.
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2231 on: March 28, 2023, 07:25:41 AM »
I'd be surprised if a cruise missile with anything less than a nuke warhead would do the job.  Cruise missile warheads need to be pretty light just as a result of airframe engineering for size and range.

Block V Tomahawks have a, IIRC, 1000lbs payload. That's not going to do a whole lot to that dam.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2232 on: March 28, 2023, 07:52:27 AM »
A lot of weapons R&D lately has been focused on "minimizing collateral damage" so we have precision ninja bombs which deploy big knives and small diameter bombs that have reduced explosive effects. In a way that makes sense if your goal is to take out a single car containing a terrorist or to kill a bad guy on his balcony without flattening an entire neighborhood, but these weapons are much less useful if you're in open warfare against a large formidable foe, especially if one of the targets is a dam containing megatons of reinforced concrete.

Hmmm . . . if a Tomahawk has a 1000 lb payload, would a 1000 pound shaped charge be any more effective against a dam than just an ordinary ordnance package? Anyone know how shaped charges work against really BIG concrete structures? Would it do anything more than pockmark the surface?

It didn't just get censored in the movie.

The dog's name recently was removed from a memorial to 617 squadron . . .
I remember reading a story that the memorial was defaced by wokesters fairly recently too.

I have a copy of the "uncensored" movie. I'm waiting to bring it out until I have a movie night over here with some friends.
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Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2233 on: March 28, 2023, 08:06:47 AM »
I don't think I heard of a movie.  Just saw documentary's on the damn busting bombs/raids on the History Channel back in the day.

Lucas modeled the Star Wars Death Star trench run on the movie
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2234 on: March 28, 2023, 08:36:32 AM »
Hmmm . . . if a Tomahawk has a 1000 lb payload, would a 1000 pound shaped charge be any more effective against a dam than just an ordinary ordnance package? Anyone know how shaped charges work against really BIG concrete structures? Would it do anything more than pockmark the surface?
As far as I can tell, the most capable warhead for penetration that the TLAM fields is the JMEWS but that's not designed to breach a dam that is 60 meters thick at the upstream water level and about 80 meters thick 10 meters below the water level.  60 meters of penetration is at the upper advertised limit of the MOP, and that is a 30,000 pound device specifically designed to penetrate reinforced concrete with a 5,300 pound warhead.

Maybe an attacker would get lucky with Chinese corruption resulting in a weaker than expected dam, but when the biggest non-nuclear penetrator we have is rated to penetrate the dam only superficially, I don't have much faith that even dumping all of our active TLAMs into it would be particularly effective.  Lots of booms could probably get it to leak and require a lot of repair work, but I think a couple of cruise missiles causing the prophesied wave of destruction wiping out tens or hundreds of millions of screaming Chinese is ... unlikely.

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2235 on: March 28, 2023, 08:50:40 AM »
It may not have to penetrate it in order to cause it to fail.  Just crack up the structure and let the water pressure do its thing. 

Haven't you seen Force 10 From Navarone?   =D
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dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2236 on: March 28, 2023, 09:19:40 AM »
I would think a medium sized nuke just upstream of the dam is what you want to do.  Thermal shock, as well as blast wave, followed a bit later by the hydraulic force of the reservoir crashing back into the damaged structure when the steam bubble collapses..

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2237 on: March 28, 2023, 09:36:11 AM »
I don't think you need to go that far.  Most bunker buster bombs are designed with the intent of penetrating to a protected internal bunker.  Failure to penetrate far enough is failure to take it out.  With a damn, that isn't really the intent.  You don't have to penetrate through the damn.  You just need to break it so the water pushing on the upstream side can complete the failure.  I don't know what that would take, but I don't think it is as much as you might think if placed appropriately.  Do you go after the damn itself or hit the edges?  I am sure the military already has studies on the best way to do this. 

The other problem with taking out a sizeable damn is you don't do that until you have already decided to attack a whole bunch of civilians downstream. 
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2238 on: March 28, 2023, 09:42:51 AM »
Good point Mech.  Full penetration is likely not necessary for a failure.  Again, though, I have serious doubts that even a significant barrage of cruise missiles are capable of even a partial failure of such a large dam.

I would think a medium sized nuke just upstream of the dam is what you want to do.  Thermal shock, as well as blast wave, followed a bit later by the hydraulic force of the reservoir crashing back into the damaged structure when the steam bubble collapses..
If we've crossed the Rubicon into using nukes, the whole dam operation seems to be something of an unnecessary exercise, or at best a footnote.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2239 on: March 28, 2023, 09:45:57 AM »

The other problem with taking out a sizeable damn is you don't do that until you have already decided to attack a whole bunch of civilians downstream.

Yep
Taking out the TGD could kill thousands maybe even potentially tens of thousands of civilians and displace millions. I would think nukes would have to be already flying for us to consider doing something like that at which point you might as well nuke the entire site.
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2240 on: March 28, 2023, 09:53:18 AM »
The easier target is the electrical high yard for the dam power generators.  Take out the power transformers and other electrical switchgear and that still has an impact. 
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2241 on: March 28, 2023, 09:54:49 AM »
The easier target is the electrical high yard for the dam power generators.  Take out the power transformers and other electrical switchgear and that still has an impact.

Winner winner chicken dinner

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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2242 on: March 28, 2023, 09:57:37 AM »
If you really want to go all out hit the locks. Would have largely the same effect as taking out the dam would while being a much softer target.
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2243 on: March 28, 2023, 10:30:11 AM »
If you really want to go all out hit the locks. Would have largely the same effect as taking out the dam would while being a much softer target.

That would be a good target in some cases.  Uncontrolled water flow though a damaged lock system could be quite destructive.
However, not all dams have lock structures for ship passage around them.  Most dams do have spillway systems.  Attack and significantly damage a spillway to cause an uncontrolled release of water might be a way to cause a dam to fail.
The Oroville Dam spillway failure in California provides an example of what could happen.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2244 on: March 28, 2023, 10:37:22 AM »
TGD locks

Just take out a couple of the upper gates and let the rushing water do the rest to the lower gates. Even if you didn't take out the all the gates river traffic would be jammed for months if not years.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 10:52:34 AM by WLJ »
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2245 on: March 28, 2023, 10:45:41 AM »
That looks to be an excellent target in this case.  Stand-off weapons might actually work if they can do enough damage.
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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2246 on: March 28, 2023, 10:46:39 AM »
You guys are all getting APS flagged on government lists all over the world.  :rofl:
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2247 on: March 28, 2023, 10:47:13 AM »
Looks like if you took out the top two locks the rest would be inundated.
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RocketMan

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2248 on: March 28, 2023, 10:48:46 AM »
You guys are all getting APS flagged on government lists all over the world.  :rofl:

Taking our deplorable selves international.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2249 on: March 28, 2023, 10:55:15 AM »
If you really want to go all out hit the locks. Would have largely the same effect as taking out the dam would while being a much softer target.
I'm guessing you'd want to hit the top two locks and hope that the flow from the top lock would be sufficient to erode around the rest of the lock structure before the operators were able to open the remaining locks.  If they did so you'd probably just end up with a spillway and relatively little damage.