Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 130890 times)

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2425 on: May 17, 2023, 08:17:20 AM »
And  in other news

‘We will put him in a coffin and cover him with the American flag’: Wagner chief Prigozhin claims US Special Forces vet has died fighting for Ukraine in city of Bakhmut as warlord is seen inspecting a body in new video
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12089941/Wagner-chief-Prigozhin-claims-Special-Forces-vet-died-Bakhmut.html

Quote
The footage, filmed at night, appears to show Prigozhin then inspecting what he claims to be the soldier's US identification documents amid the sound of apparent heavy artillery fire.

Prigozhin says in the video: 'So we will hand him over to the United States of America, we'll put him in a coffin, cover him with the American flag with respect because he did not die in his bed as a grandpa but he died at war and most likely a worthy [death], right?'

In the video, a Wagner mercenary claims the soldier was returning fire when he died. Prigozhin replies: 'He was shooting back, he died in the battle, so we will hand over his documents tomorrow morning and pack everything, right?'

Keep this in mind

Quote
DailyMail.com cannot verify the authenticity of the documents or the nationality of the body shown in the video. Prigozhin often posts fake videos for propaganda purposes.
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2426 on: May 17, 2023, 08:23:22 AM »
And  in other news

‘We will put him in a coffin and cover him with the American flag’: Wagner chief Prigozhin claims US Special Forces vet has died fighting for Ukraine in city of Bakhmut as warlord is seen inspecting a body in new video
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12089941/Wagner-chief-Prigozhin-claims-Special-Forces-vet-died-Bakhmut.html

Keep this in mind

It's true. Former Green Beret from Idaho.

https://news.yahoo.com/idaho-army-special-forces-veteran-173524354.html
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2427 on: May 17, 2023, 10:10:29 AM »
If Texas had integrated air defenses and every redneck there had a case of Stingers, it might be pretty tough.
Air Combat and DEAD as a mission isn't my specialty, and I only have passing familiarity with it.  AFAIK, the last time the US saw even half-ass decent air defense was Baghdad.  In 1991 we had F-117's, a till then unknown capability that we used to great surprise, and in 2003, after 12 years of embargos they had a pasted together system of 25 year old rockets and sensors, which we, again, used stealth to take apart.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the USAF couldn't have taken down the Ukrainian air defenses B2's F35's and F22's would have *expletive deleted*ed them up, but not being as good as the USAF isn't automatically *expletive deleted*it tier.  I am saying that if we had to try and provide CAS with A-10s and F/A-18's, against an enemy well supplied with Stingers, it might be ugly.

The Red Air Force does seem to be really lacking in ISR and Command and Control, even when they can manage to keep a Mainstay in the air.  Which goes back to my earlier point about fewer, more technologically advanced weapons (i.e. NATO strategy) seeming to be a winning strategy.

Mostly I'm thinking out loud, because it's likely we'll get to see what's left of the Russians, or the Chinese, or both up close this decade, and I don't want to fall into the trap of "those guys couldn't even beat Ukraine" when what they couldn't beat was the Ukraine, and all of NATO's logistics and reserve weaponry.  And all that crap hasn't beaten the Russians yet either.

THe Ukrainians are fighting a hell of an asymmetric war, and well utilizing the resources they have managed to get, and props to them for defending their homes as best they can.  I guess we'll see what this summer brings in terms of Russian troop commitment and NATO's fickle citizen's funding desires.
I seem to remember hearing that Ukraine revisited the defense of their country after Russia moved into the Crimea pretty easily.  Not just anti-air stuff like stingers, but plenty of anti-armor rockets as well.  Seems like they did a good job of predicting what Russia would do and setting up a strategy to counter it. 

The more shocking part is that Russia couldn't overwhelm/overrun them last year after mobilizing a larger army to invade.  Instead, they seem to be unable to supply their army as well as they should and allowed Ukraine breathing room to counter attack. 
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2428 on: May 17, 2023, 11:23:36 AM »
I don't want to fall into the trap of "those guys couldn't even beat Ukraine" when what they couldn't beat was the Ukraine, and all of NATO's logistics and reserve weaponry.  And all that crap hasn't beaten the Russians yet either.
That's all true, but as has been mentioned by a few people, they didn't beat Ukraine before Ukraine had NATO logistics and reserve weaponry to rely on.  Maybe the NATO commitments to supply Ukraine were executed much faster than I'd expect, but I'm guessing that the first few weeks were mostly done with systems on-hand that their troops were already trained with.  Further, even given all of the western support they've received, for a lot of good reasons they have not gotten our best and most capable systems.  That the limited, outdated, and export-model stuff we've sent them has been sufficient to stall the Russian invasion for so long is telling.  If Ukraine was fielding modern NATO weapons systems across the board instead of a hodgepodge of export models and hand-me-downs, I would think it would only serve to magnify Russian losses and take the fight into Russian territory in a big way.

Sure, "those guys couldn't even beat Ukraine" is not strictly correct, but even considering the support we've given them, prior to 2021 I would have expected Russia to have the resources and strength to march over them in a matter of weeks.  They didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the USAF couldn't have taken down the Ukrainian air defenses B2's F35's and F22's would have *expletive deleted*ed them up, but not being as good as the USAF isn't automatically *expletive deleted*it tier.  I am saying that if we had to try and provide CAS with A-10s and F/A-18's, against an enemy well supplied with Stingers, it might be ugly.
Right, but Russia does have something like 10 active SU-57s, and claims to have used a handful to attack targets in Ukraine (though they may keep them over Russia and just fire weapons over the border).  Saying that all they have to play with are equivalents of A-10s and F/A-18's isn't quite accurate.  Also, if their concern was just MANPADs (i.e., assuming they were able to run effective SEAD on the bigger AA installations), I'd expect Russia to be doing high altitude bombing all day long.

I'm not claiming Russia is *expletive deleted*it-tier, I'm saying they're not nearly as strong as I used to think they were.  You probably already had a better take on their capabilities before this conflict than I did, so maybe you weren't as surprised as me that Ukraine is still standing.  I used to figure Russia was #2 or #3 in conventional military capability.  Now ... maybe 9 or 10?

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2429 on: May 17, 2023, 02:00:12 PM »
I have been following Denys Davydov on Telegram for a week or two now since I came across his youtube videos.  Purely pro-Ukrane and biased.  He posted this today.  No story linked.  We will see if it hits the news anywhere. 
Quote
Ruzzian Designers of the Kinzhal hypersonic rocket were arrested today accused of spying for USA. Yesterday I told you that the family of one of designers lives abroad in the NATO country.

Salty Cracker had this video about an explosion inside Ukraine.  Denys acknowledged it happened with little commentary.  I don't know if this was enough to delay anything. 
https://rumble.com/v2nohig-ukraine-puts-300-million-of-us-aid-in-one-warehouse-and-russia-blows-it-up.html
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2430 on: May 19, 2023, 08:28:57 AM »
A $3 billion "accounting error". The result will apparently be giving Ukraine another $3 billion.

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2023/05/18/pentagon-reportedly-had-a-3-billion-accounting-error-which-will-benefit-ukraine/
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2431 on: May 19, 2023, 02:13:11 PM »
PUTIN'S PUPS Sick Russian plan to round up stray dogs and send them out on suicide missions to clear MINES in Putin’s invasion
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22396673/russian-stray-dogs-mines-ukraine-war-putin/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sunyoutubestories

It's the Sun so the usual grain of salt is recommencement but something about this sounds familiar. Hmmm I wonder what?

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HeroHog

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2432 on: May 19, 2023, 07:07:39 PM »
Incendiary bats, WWII (IIRC)
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2433 on: May 19, 2023, 07:10:12 PM »
Incendiary bats, WWII (IIRC)

That was one of the US's more wacky ideas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2434 on: May 19, 2023, 07:12:53 PM »
While we on the subject of wacky

During the Cold War, the UK designed nuclear land mines that were reliant on chickens
https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-developed-chicken-warmed-nuclear-landmines-2016-11
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cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2435 on: May 19, 2023, 09:06:47 PM »
I believe I’ve mentioned before that upon successful completion of their mission, the chickens would have been promoted to Kentucky Colonel.

HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2436 on: May 20, 2023, 07:42:50 AM »
Incendiary bats, WWII (IIRC)
That's actually a rather clever idea, given the way Japanese cities were built in the 1940s. We likely would have seen how it worked operationally if not for the success of the Manhattan Project.

As for Ukraine, they probably would have even more success if provision of NATO weaponry wasn't made contingent on ROE's that disallowed use of NATO weapons for strikes at military targets (e.g., missile launch sites and military airfields) within Russia.
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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2437 on: May 20, 2023, 07:51:12 AM »
"We likely would have seen how it worked operationally if not for the success of the Manhattan Project."

More than likely not.

By the time the bat bomb would have been ready, in mid 1945, pretty much anything worth burning in Japan had already been burned by B-29 raids.

It would have been truly a case of diminishing returns.
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HankB

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2438 on: May 20, 2023, 11:37:08 AM »
"By the time the bat bomb would have been ready, in mid 1945, pretty much anything worth burning in Japan had already been burned by B-29 raids."

I don' t think that's entirely the case. Without the A-bomb, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been good targets, as would Kokura (the primary target for the 2nd bomb.)  Niigata was still an option for targeting, as were any number of smaller targets that really wouldn't have called for an atom bomb. A couple of aircraft with bat bombs would have been cheaper than a massive B-29 raid, too, and the bats would scatter and find places to roost, so if targeting was a little off, they still might have been effective.

Management of incendiary bats overseas - in the field - would have been tricky, though.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2439 on: May 20, 2023, 11:56:38 AM »

Management of incendiary bats overseas - in the field - would have been tricky, though.

Sounds like a job for

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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2440 on: May 20, 2023, 11:57:31 AM »
I believe I’ve mentioned before that upon successful completion of their mission, the chickens would have been promoted to Kentucky Colonel.

Extra Extra Crispy
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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2441 on: May 20, 2023, 12:26:36 PM »
"Without the A-bomb, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been good targets, as would Kokura (the primary target for the 2nd bomb.)  Niigata was still an option for targeting, as were any number of smaller targets that really wouldn't have called for an atom bomb."

Hiroshima and Nagasaki WERE bombed, including with firebombs, before the A Bomb target committee pulled them off Curtis LeMay's target lists (much to his displeasure), but weren't hit with the same kind of ferocity that other cities were... yet. Without the A bomb those cities would have been firebombed back to the stone age.

The smaller, less densely populated and more spread out cities in Japan would have been less vulnerable to bat bombing because the fires could have been more easily controlled. Those cities would also have been less vulnerable to the kind of firestorms seen in cities like Tokyo, and it took the sheer volume of incendiary material a B-29 could carry to do the kind of damage that LeMay wanted.

Truth of the matter is, though, that by the time of the dropping of the atomic bomb, virtually every Japanese population center over 75,000 had been firebombed to one extent or another, as is shown in this map.

The figures for Hiroshima and Nagasaki apparently include the damage done by the atom bombs... a different kind of firebombing,  I guess.

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K Frame

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2442 on: May 20, 2023, 12:36:42 PM »
"Management of incendiary bats overseas - in the field - would have been tricky, though."

Management of the bats in the test setting was tricky as hell and failed on at least one occasion. A number of bats escaped in the test area and caused significant damage at an Army Air base in New Mexico.

The program was also cancelled in mid 1944, well before virtually anyone knew of the Manhattan Project because it was estimated that it wouldn't be ready for operational use until mid 1945 and a new incendiary bomb was being deployed that used napalm, which was proving to be FAR more effective than previous designs that had used magnesium and oil spray.
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zxcvbob

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2443 on: May 20, 2023, 04:31:16 PM »
Sounds like a job for



I can hear the theme music. =)
"It's good, though..."

HeroHog

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2444 on: May 20, 2023, 04:48:09 PM »
I hear the trumpet rif they did on scene changes...
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2445 on: May 21, 2023, 09:12:41 AM »
Russia says they've taken Bakhmut, Ukraine say they haven't.
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MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2446 on: May 21, 2023, 09:49:22 AM »
I am not familiar with this site, but the story seems a bit outrageous. 

United States Offers LGM-30G Minuteman III Missiles to Ukraine with a No-Strike Agreement on Russia
https://bnn.network/breaking-news/united-states-offers-lgm-30g-minuteman-iii-missiles-to-ukraine-with-a-no-strike-agreement-on-russia/

Quote
In a significant move to bolster Ukraine’s defense capabilities, the United States has announced its readiness to provide LGM-30G Minuteman III intercontinental ballistic missiles. However, this offer comes with a crucial condition – the Ukrainian Armed Forces must refrain from launching strikes on Russian territory.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2447 on: May 21, 2023, 09:56:24 AM »
I am not familiar with this site, but the story seems a bit outrageous. 

United States Offers LGM-30G Minuteman III Missiles to Ukraine with a No-Strike Agreement on Russia
https://bnn.network/breaking-news/united-states-offers-lgm-30g-minuteman-iii-missiles-to-ukraine-with-a-no-strike-agreement-on-russia/

A bit?
Waders required to read.
Think they're actually trying to be serious.

Next article will be the US gifting a couple of attack submarines to Switzerland.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 10:13:13 AM by WLJ »
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Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2448 on: May 21, 2023, 10:27:43 AM »
I do not know a whole lot about missiles, but aren't ICBMs, i.e, INTERCONTINENTAL ballistic missiles, pretty much designed for striking the enemy's territory? There must be cheaper and more efficient options for missile defense within the boundaries of Ukraine.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #2449 on: May 21, 2023, 10:36:47 AM »
I do not know a whole lot about missiles, but aren't ICBMs, i.e, INTERCONTINENTAL ballistic missiles, pretty much designed for striking the enemy's territory? There must be cheaper and more efficient options for missile defense within the boundaries of Ukraine.

Ding Ding Ding.
Unless Ukraine intends on striking Siberian or maybe China or the US that is  :facepalm: And that's leaving out why would the US give them to Ukraine in the first place.
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