Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 281569 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,240
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3200 on: November 18, 2024, 10:50:00 AM »

Just *expletive deleted*ing breath, people. Not everything is deep state.

Yeah, some of it is deeper state.
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,287
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3201 on: November 18, 2024, 10:50:22 AM »
"The real question is what are the Norks planning to do with all this suddenly acquired real world military experience."

THEY GONNA JOIN WITH THE DEEP STATE AND OVERTHROW DA DONALD!

I was more thinking they'd push south with China's help, but I guess that is a posibility.

I saw a movie the other day where the Norks invaded mainland US.  Seems plausible with Miley's and John Bolton's help.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3202 on: November 18, 2024, 10:50:39 AM »
Looks like you might want to take that advice yourself.  =)

I'm laughing too hard to breathe, actually.

To co-opt a phrase...

If everything is Deep State, nothing is Deep State.
Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3203 on: November 18, 2024, 10:52:10 AM »
"I saw a movie the other day where the Norks invaded mainland US.  Seems plausible with Miley's and John Bolton's help."

Wasn't that the premise of the remake of Red Dawn?

And I think I played some early Xbox (original XBox) games that had that premise, as well.

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,383
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3204 on: November 18, 2024, 11:24:53 AM »
. . . I saw a movie the other day where the Norks invaded mainland US.  Seems plausible with Miley's and John Bolton's help.
Sounds like the "Red Dawn" remake. IIRC, the invaders were supposed to be Chicoms, but the Chicoms objected and the movie maker obligingly changed the invaders to Norks.
Trump won in 2016. And again in 2024. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,287
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3205 on: November 18, 2024, 11:50:09 AM »
Yes, and everybody slammed the movie as stupidly implausible......that's the joke.  That adding some deep state players would suddenly make that a thing.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,240
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3206 on: November 18, 2024, 02:10:31 PM »
What is it with Russians and tall buildings?
Guess he felt bad about it and jumped, just like all the others  ;)

Russian ballet dancer Vladimir Shklyarov, outspoken critic of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, falls 60 feet to his death
https://nypost.com/2024/11/18/world-news/russian-ballet-star-who-criticized-putin-falls-to-his-death/

« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 02:22:32 PM by WLJ »
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

JTHunter

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,815
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3207 on: November 18, 2024, 02:41:14 PM »
Do any of you ever listen to the Brian Killmeade (sp ??) radio show?  He an a guest were estimating today that the NorKs may be sending as much as 100K troops as the Russians are estimated to have lost ~150K compared to ~55K Ukrainian troops.  That's why they felt the Biden administration "authorized" the use of the missiles to hit inside Russia.  They also were theorizing that the use of the NorKs AND that the Ukranians have been able to hold on to the section of Russia they invaded a couple of months ago has already been an "escalation".
If any of you have the Audicy app, see if you can find 97.1 FM "Talk" radio in the St. Louis, MO, area.  I think they are actually in Florissant, MO.  They have some interesting conversations.
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,287
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3208 on: November 18, 2024, 03:47:39 PM »
The Ukrainians haven't "held on" to *expletive deleted*it from their Kusk offensive. They have some partisans ranging 9ver the border in that area, but they don't control any land.

That whole thing was a bad idea, as it used up a bunch of men and ammo, and allowed the Russians to surge forward in the south east, and consolidate their lines.

Opportunity

  • New Member
  • Posts: 79
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3209 on: November 19, 2024, 06:21:44 AM »
The Ukrainians haven't "held on" to *expletive deleted*it from their Kusk offensive.
That whole thing was a bad idea, as it used up a bunch of men and ammo, and allowed the Russians to surge forward in the south east, and consolidate their lines.
It seems to me the opposite - it was a great idea, on the level of great military commander like Napoleon.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,248
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3210 on: November 19, 2024, 07:00:59 AM »
It seems to me the opposite - it was a great idea, on the level of great military commander like Napoleon.
I see what you did there.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3211 on: November 19, 2024, 07:26:24 AM »
As a publicity stunt I think it did what it intended to do.

It was a HUGE slap in the face to Putin internationally, especially given the importance of the Kursk Oblast in the Great Patriotic War and all of Putin's bobbleheading about this being the newest iteration of that war with his "DeNazify Ukraine!"

As a strategic move? Yeah, not much of nuttin there.
Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

Opportunity

  • New Member
  • Posts: 79
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3212 on: November 19, 2024, 07:53:47 AM »
It was a HUGE slap in the face to Putin internationally, especially given the importance of the Kursk Oblast in the Great Patriotic War and all of Putin's bobbleheading about this being the newest iteration of that war with his "DeNazify Ukraine!"

+1, Yes, I think he is now hunkered down in a corner and crying from such a powerful blow.
And the brave Ukrainian troops are glad that they were able to provide such an international slap in the face and please the democratic world. They are ready to stay in the Kursk region for a long time, many of them - forever...

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3213 on: November 19, 2024, 08:10:20 AM »
Wow. You really didn't grasp, in the least, the concept of what I was saying, did you?

The Ukrainian movement into the Kursk Oblast was a show for the rest of the world, not Putin, that all of Putin's screeching and howling and chest thumping about how wonder and powerful and majestic his military is... is just more bullshit.

But, at least YOU seem to be buying Putin's fantasies hook, line, and sinker.

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3214 on: November 19, 2024, 09:28:03 AM »
Fox is reporting that Ukraine has fired long-range missiles into Russia. At least that's what the Kremlin is saying.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-fires-first-barrage-us-made-long-range-missiles-russia-kremlin-says
Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,195
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3215 on: November 19, 2024, 09:30:11 AM »
It also has a portion of the fighting going on in Russian territory.  So now land mines, trenches, and all the marks of a ground war are being left there instead of just Ukraine.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,240
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3216 on: November 19, 2024, 09:38:07 AM »
Never mind any supposed reasons but you invade a sovereign nation and bomb the crap out of many of their cities and towns and then whine they have no right to shoot back? :facepalm:
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48,996
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3217 on: November 19, 2024, 09:46:12 AM »
Fox is reporting that Ukraine has fired long-range missiles into Russia. At least that's what the Kremlin is saying.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-fires-first-barrage-us-made-long-range-missiles-russia-kremlin-says

It will be interesting to see if it's accurate reporting out of Russia. S2 Underground has a couple of interesting theories, one being that Biden gave the go ahead for offensive use of ATACMS at this time because Ukraine has already used up their current supply of ATACMS. Thus, he aligns the US with other NATO countries in policy, but not in action. So it could be ATACMS being fired, or it could be whatever Euro versions of ATACMS are that were fired, and the Russians are saying that they are US missiles as a propaganda response to the policy announcement.

https://youtu.be/PXpNnsgRBnQ
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,444
  • I Am Inimical
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3218 on: November 19, 2024, 09:51:24 AM »
"It will be interesting to see if it's accurate reporting out of Russia."

What? You doubt their reporting? How DARE you doubt the truthfulness of Mother Russia?

You question the truthfulness of the Rodina again and we'll nuke you! You got us?  WE WILL NUKE YOU!
Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,248
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3219 on: November 19, 2024, 10:02:51 AM »
The Ukrainian push into Kursk appears to be considerably more than "some partisans ranging over the border" - something which had already been happening for a long time before they moved into Kursk with more force. 

The forces deployed in Kursk are relatively small and have no chance of accomplishing any major strategic goals, but I'm not sure they fit particularly well with any accepted definitions of "partisans", which typically implies irregular troops, or at least detached light troops, not a corps sized element with armor support.

The attack does coincide with increased rate of terrain losses in eastern Ukraine, so the diversion of manpower and equipment could well be partially responsible for that, but Russian progress in eastern Ukraine was slowly happening even prior to that. 

Small and strategically ineffective though it may be (at its most expansive it was a tiny fraction of ground that Russia occupied within Ukraine) it also is a major insult to Russia and I think more intended to give foreign press something to talk about to distract them from losses to Russia elsewhere.  If they had timed it right it might have also been a bargaining chip for negotiation, but I think Putin correctly believes he can retake it before any real negotiation takes place.

I doubt the long-term benefit of the Kursk operation, but I'm not sure they had a lot of way better options either.  From the outset, the size and military asset disparity made Ukraine's long-term prospects pretty bleak one way or another, external support or not.

Russia's performance in this campaign has been abysmal.  The inability to achieve its decapitation strike at the beginning of the attack quickly led into revealing the horrible logistics and lack of communication which cemented its losses during Ukraine's counteroffensive.  It failed to ever achieve air superiority, even in early phases of the conflict.  It was unable to protect general staff leading to massive losses in leadership.  Despite being on a war economy, Russia has shown an inability to replace losses of modern equipment and has resorted to pulling long-outdated equipment out of mothballs to backfill for the absolutely tremendous number of vehicles lost.  Morale has been terrible, and the sheer number of on-video suicides of Russian soldiers has been horrific.  Discipline has been bad, and if the POW interviews are anything to go by, many Russian soldiers are as afraid of being executed by their officers as they are of being killed by Ukrainians.

Given enough time Russia will absolutely win this war, but they should have won it in a matter of three weeks, or three months, not three years.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,383
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3220 on: November 19, 2024, 10:15:05 AM »
. . . the sheer number of on-video suicides of Russian soldiers has been horrific.  Discipline has been bad, and if the POW interviews are anything to go by, many Russian soldiers are as afraid of being executed by their officers as they are of being killed by Ukrainians . . .
Maybe there's an opportunity for Ukrainian propaganda to encourage despondent Russian troops to "Kill a Commissar" before they suicide or desert?   >:D
Trump won in 2016. And again in 2024. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,240
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3221 on: November 19, 2024, 10:22:51 AM »

Small and strategically ineffective though it may be (at its most expansive it was a tiny fraction of ground that Russia occupied within Ukraine) it also is a major insult to Russia and I think more intended to give foreign press something to talk about to distract them from losses to Russia elsewhere.


Doolittle Raid
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,248
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3222 on: November 19, 2024, 10:45:42 AM »
Maybe there's an opportunity for Ukrainian propaganda to encourage despondent Russian troops to "Kill a Commissar" before they suicide or desert?   >:D
There have been cases of that.  I saw a video where a deserter videoed himself fragging some officers, presumably to prove his commitment to desertion.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,383
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3223 on: November 19, 2024, 12:18:50 PM »
There have been cases of that.  I saw a video where a deserter videoed himself fragging some officers, presumably to prove his commitment to desertion.
If I was a Russian conscripted to go to Ukraine and was contemplating suicide (rather than defection) I'd darned well try to get a commissar or zampolit first.
Trump won in 2016. And again in 2024. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,287
Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #3224 on: November 19, 2024, 12:20:20 PM »
That's my bad, I based my comments on "partisan's running around" on several professional reports of the attack, including the ISW daily Map, available here: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375  (updates daily, so may change depending on when you click)

I misread the legend for "claimed limit of Ukrainian advance" (blue lines from upper right) and "Reported Ukrainian Partisan Warfare" (Blue lines from upper left).  THere are still some Ukrainian Regulars across the border, for now.  They are being pushed back steadily, and some groups are in danger of being encircled.  Some decent analysis can be read here.

It remains true that the Kursk Offensive took badly needed troops and weapons from the line in the south east, allowing Russian Forces to push forward farther and faster than any time since 2022, basically achieve the goals of their 2023 offensive, and in many places anchor their line on stratigic terrain to hold against a counter attack.

If you believe any international black eye Russia got from this was a victory, it was clearly a Phyrric one.  The US and Europe aren't going to support Ukraine any "harder" because Russia was embarrassed, and it cost Ukraine troops they don't have to spare.

There's no reason to think that Russia won't push to the border of their "claimed" territory (which is in most places between a KM and a mile from their front, except where they've already hit it and anchored their line), and hunker down and wait for Jan and a negotiated end.  In the mean time new troops and however many Norks show up can human wave the Ukrainian's back across Kursk's border.

Ukraine is trying to hit farther into Russia to upset this, because they want to be offensive when the negotiations hit, but they blew their wad early, and it looks like NATO will wait for Trump to enter negotiations.