Author Topic: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns  (Read 1119 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,839
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
They want them to switch to all electric.
I wouldn't be shocked in the least if they suddenly award the contract to a Chinese Company. Wonder if Hunter has sold any paintings recently?

Quote
The Biden administration launched a last-minute push Wednesday to derail the U.S. Postal Service’s plan to spend billions of dollars on a new fleet of gasoline-powered delivery trucks, citing the damage the polluting vehicles could inflict on the climate and Americans’ health.

Biden officials push to hold up $11.3 billion USPS truck contract, citing climate damage
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/02/02/usps-trucks-epa-climate-change/


« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 11:44:41 AM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
There's a LOT of crooked money to be made in fighting Climate Change - it makes Bernie Madoff's schemes look like a game of three card Monty in a Brooklyn alley by comparison.

. . . I wouldn't be shocked in the least if they suddenly award the contract to a Chinese Company. Wonder if Hunter has sold any paintings recently?
I've been asking myself that question a lot lately . . . wondering what $500,000 comes to in yuan . . . and whether or not The Big Guy is only in it for 10%.

A Manchurian Candidate doesn't have to be brainwashed - bribery and blackmail will work, too.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,963
  • APS Risk Manager
Is there even an off-the-shelf electric delivery vehicle currently available for the USPS?  Jeff Bezos has been in the news recently asking where are his Amazon electric delivery vans.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,587
Well this is going to cost us a lot more then 11 billion.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,839
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Is there even an off-the-shelf electric delivery vehicle currently available for the USPS?  Jeff Bezos has been in the news recently asking where are his Amazon electric delivery vans.

Musk could probably do it but the Biden admin has been doing their best to act like Tesla doesn't exist.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,665
Hmmm....

Article says:
Quote
The dispute over the Postal Service’s plans to spend up to $11.3 billion on as many as 165,000 new delivery trucks over the next decade has major implications for President Biden’s goal of converting all federal cars and trucks to clean power.

11.3 billion/165,000 trucks is $68,484 each.  A Tesla Model Y long range (with a nice interior) is $58,990.  I would love to see Elon come up on twitter and offer to fulfill this contract with EV's for like 50k each.  Since it seems like Biden can't say the word "Tesla" when talking about EV's.

Tesla probably couldn't actually make that many cars, but the White House song and dance would be glorious to behold.


ETA: Cross posted with WLJ.  Great minds and all that.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
The only electric vehicles Biden recognizes are the ones made in UNION factories.

The operative word is UNION - as UNIONS have funneled huge amounts of cash to (mostly) Democrat candidates in general and Biden's campaign in particular.

Bribery still works.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,839
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,274
Is there even an off-the-shelf electric delivery vehicle currently available for the USPS?  Jeff Bezos has been in the news recently asking where are his Amazon electric delivery vans.

No there isn’t .


Lots of fancy images and videos of prototypes of all manner of electric and “hydrogen” vehicles but reality is a whole different world.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,839
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
  Jeff Bezos has been in the news recently asking where are his Amazon electric delivery vans.
No there isn’t .


Lots of fancy images and videos of prototypes of all manner of electric and “hydrogen” vehicles but reality is a whole different world.

*cough* Blue Origin *cough*
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,825
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2022, 03:52:35 AM »
Noble goals aside, I'm not anxious to hear about two hydrogen-powered vehicles colliding.

High pressures have consequences.

Huge volumes of flammable gas-air mixtures have consequences.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,665
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2022, 09:51:28 AM »
Hydrogen Fuel cell cars don't run on compressed hydrogen.  They generate it on board.


Other than the LPG busses and such, I don't think there are passenger vehicles running on high pressure gas.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2022, 09:54:17 AM »
Noble goals aside, I'm not anxious to hear about two hydrogen-powered vehicles colliding.

High pressures have consequences.

Huge volumes of flammable gas-air mixtures have consequences.

Wouldn't quite work that way but it would be glorious to watch(from a safe distance) if it did.  :rofl:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,485
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 10:04:58 AM »
Hydrogen Fuel cell cars don't run on compressed hydrogen.  They generate it on board.

Generate it from what?  ???

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,619
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2022, 10:06:35 AM »
Hydrogen Fuel cell cars don't run on compressed hydrogen.  They generate it on board.


Other than the LPG busses and such, I don't think there are passenger vehicles running on high pressure gas.
Not all of them.  There are companies that have set up hydrogen fueling stations to load compressed hydrogen. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,665
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2022, 11:24:01 AM »
Actually, I'm wrong.  I thought the fuel cells using hydrogen were getting it from water, but they go the other way, Hydrogen and Oxygen in, water and electricity out.

I guess that just proves I'm not a chemist.

They must have hydrogen storage on board somewhere.


Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,485
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 01:12:15 PM »
I've never been enamored with the concept of using diatomic hydrogen as a fuel.  It can't be liquefied at temperatures and pressure that are practical, so it must be stored as a very high pressure gas.  That limits the quantity that can be stored, and means the container must be very sturdy, and should be periodically tested.

Heavier molecules are both more energy dense, and able to be compressed to a liquid.

Consider a 20lb BBQ grill propane cylinder.  Using propane, liquefied, there's 456 MJ of energy available.  Equal to 3.5 gallons of gasoline.  The volume needed for LPG and propane are roughly similar, propane takes up about 30% more room for the same energy.  The propane pressure correlates to temperature, here's a chart.  Propane cylinders are designed to have a maximum allowable working pressure of 300PSI.  Not crazy high, so the metal doesn't have to be all that thick.

If we filled that same cylinder with H2 at 300PSI, how much energy would that be?  By ideal gas law, we could cram about 375L of hydrogen in at STP. That's 33.7 grams.  Each gram burns completely to water producing 141kJ of heat.  So,  4.7MJ.  Equal to 12 tablespoons of gallon in energy content.  Not so good.

The solution is to raise the pressure, which is how non-condensable gasses are currently shipped and used.  But, the container has to be insanely more sturdy, which adds weight, and compression losses. 

Lets ask the question: Using currently accepted, safe, industry standard high pressure gas cylinders, what would we be looking at to store say the energy content you'd get in 10 gallons of gasoline?

A gallon of gasoline has 121MJ in in, so we want 1,210MJ. A Size 300 High Pressure Steel Cylinder has in internal volume of 49 liters, and can be pressurized to 2400 PSI.  It weights 132lbs.  At that pressure, it holds about 8000l of gas.  719g, or 101MJ.

Answer, we need 12 cylinders.  That's over 1,500lb for your hydrogen "gas tank".

Here's the other thing that should cause your eyebrow to raise about hydrogen fuel...  The explosive limits for gasoline are between 1.2% to 7.1%.  In concentrations outside of that range, gasoline isn't explosive. Propane is between 2.1% and 9.5%.  Hydrogen?  4% to 75%.

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,208
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 01:42:06 PM »
There are other ways to store hydrogen.  It's been a lot time since I looked it up so I can't recall the details.  I think they adsorb it into sintered metal or dissolve it in some solvent, like how acetylene is safely pressurized.

Everyone seems to ignore the energy required to compress or liquify the hydrogen once it's produced.  That might be okay if you're using nuclear energy to produce it, but I think they want to use windmills or solar panels.
"It's good, though..."

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 02:47:34 PM »
Putting on my tinfoil conspiracy hat for a moment . . .

 [tinfoil]

Fed.gov may actually like people to own cars with a short range . . .
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,274
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2022, 02:51:44 PM »
The only electric vehicles Biden recognizes are the ones made in UNION factories.

The operative word is UNION - as UNIONS have funneled huge amounts of cash to (mostly) Democrat candidates in general and Biden's campaign in particular.

Bribery still works.

Word on the street is Biden might have stopped this because Oshkosh was planning to move at least some operations and possibly the mail truck plant to union free SC.
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,578
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 03:03:38 PM »
Not all of them.  There are companies that have set up hydrogen fueling stations to load compressed hydrogen.

And one of them had a big kaboom about a quarter mile from my house a couple of years ago.  Small H2 leak after hours in a storage room is the story we got.  Totaled a nearby house, damaged several others including my next door neighbor.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,839
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Biden/EPA puts the brakes on USPS's new trucks over climate change concerns
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2022, 07:50:22 AM »
Finally

Quote
BREAKING: President Biden just acknowledged Tesla as the nations largest electric vehicle manufacturer! @elonmusk

“From iconic companies, like GM and Ford building out new electric vehicle production, to Tesla, our nations largest electric vehicle manufacturer.”
https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1491135899325054976
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes