Author Topic: No Knock Death  (Read 3116 times)

Ben

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No Knock Death
« on: February 06, 2022, 07:49:14 AM »
Another no knock warrant death. Regardless of the guilt or innocence of the victim, this particular incident really got my attention because of the image included in the article.

This would be exactly how I would die if the cops did a "wrong address" no knock at my house. Door gets bashed in while I'm asleep, I grab the gun next to my bed, and being only half awake, I get plugged. No knocks have to stop.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-protest-amir-locke-no-knock-warrant-shooting-death
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Fly320s

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2022, 07:57:40 AM »
It was a legal shoot, but still a bad shoot.
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Bogie

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2022, 08:13:25 AM »
Part of the problem is that a lot of police forces have gone full tactical... Us vs. Them, with all the gear that taxpayers will afford. And if you oppose that, why do you hate cops?
 
What do you end up with? A stack of adrenaline junkies who will, without a hell of a lot of thought, kick a door to serve a warrant for parking tickets...
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Hawkmoon

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2022, 12:01:18 PM »
So Hizzoner, the mayor, says he "eliminated" no knock warrants two years ago, but they continued and now his excuse is that he is not notified when a judge issues such a warrant.

Okay -- the judges don't work for the city. But the cops do -- so if the city really intends to eliminate no knock warrants, make it the SOP that ALL such requests must be approved -- in writing -- by the mayor before being taken to a judge. Any cop who fails to observe that protocol gets two weeks off without pay for a first offense, a month without pay for a second offense, and termination for a third offense.

And the judges all get notified that any request for a no knock that doesn't bear the mayor's signature is automatically invalid.


But ending no knocks is only part of the problem. We also have to end so-called "knock and announce" dynamic entries, where the cops tap gently on the door, whisper "POLICE! OPEN THE DOOR!" and then 30-1/2 seconds later smash in the door. Functionally, there is no difference at oh-dark-thirty between a no knock and a "knock and announce." I know that I'm a heavy sleeper. I think the courts have ruled that 30 seconds is how long the cops have to wait before they can break down the door on a so-called knock and announce raid. That's not enough time. I KNOW that some mornings I don't wake up until 6:10 or so -- and the alarm goes off at 06:00, so I sleep through the alarm for ten minutes.  How can I expect to wake up, recognize and understand that someone is knocking on my door, register that fact, and get from the bedroom to the door within thirty seconds? Especially since what I should be allowed to do is to first call the police and ask if they have dispatched cops to my address.

A number of years ago I received a phone call from the local PD dispatcher, advising me that there were officers waiting to enter my house and that I needed to secure my dogs. This was interesting to me because (a) I couldn't see any police cars in my driveway, and (b) I didn't own any dogs at the time. It eventually transpired that the cops were at a house a half mile away, and the occupants had the same last name. That family had an unlisted number, so the dispatcher just called the first number he found with that last name -- me.

And some people don't think the cops get information wrong on these warrant requests.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 12:13:44 PM by Hawkmoon »
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2022, 04:32:55 PM »
Pick them up off the street, where they can't dispose of (flush) the evidence.

Like in Hawkmoon's incident.  If they knew enough about the guy that he owned dogs, they should probably have known enough about him to be able to dope out other venues and methods for an arrest.

Seems to me that in the Branch Davidian Affair, they had multiple opportunities to arrest David Koresh off the street.  If I recall correctly, there was even a time when he was visiting the Sheriff's office.

Part of the problem is that a lot of police forces have gone full tactical... Us vs. Them, with all the gear that taxpayers will afford. And if you oppose that, why do you hate cops?
 
What do you end up with? A stack of adrenaline junkies who will, without a hell of a lot of thought, kick a door to serve a warrant for parking tickets...

An amusing exaggeration for the sake of a good story but with some pretty freakin' pointy points to it.
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Boomhauer

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2022, 06:32:03 PM »
It’s a simple litmus test- if cities burn over it he was probably a POS if it gets quashed fast then he was probably a good guy.

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Bob F.

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2022, 06:33:02 PM »
I'm basically against "no-knocks." But if your going to get a warrant for a specific location, you need to be damned sure your intel is entirely accurate! Some wrong addresses lately have been inexcusable.
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Pb

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2022, 07:51:12 PM »
The article is unclear.  Did the police think a murder suspect was at the address?


Ben

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2022, 08:19:42 PM »
The article is unclear.  Did the police think a murder suspect was at the address?

Yes, but not Locke. He wasn't named on the warrant.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2022, 09:21:07 PM »
I'm basically against "no-knocks." But if your going to get a warrant for a specific location, you need to be damned sure your intel is entirely accurate! Some wrong addresses lately have been inexcusable.

ALL the intel. Aside from wrong addresses, there have been numerous documented raids in which the police went to the correct address, but the genius detectives who filed for the warrant hadn't bothered to see if the [alleged] perp still lived there. In many of these cases, the current residents had either rented or bought the premises months before, and they were squeaky clean.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 10:35:53 PM by Hawkmoon »
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Bogie

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2022, 09:39:37 PM »
My house once had the side door opened with a master key. The front door held up, and still has the marks 10 years later... Since I've been working on it, haven't found any stashes... I've considered putting a layer of steel diamondplate on it.
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MechAg94

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2022, 08:58:55 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z5KnLWn1M0
Warrior Poet Society has a video up on a Nightlock door barricade.  It is just a block that installs at the floor level to slow down someone trying to break down your door. 

I don't know how good that particular product is, but I figure stuff like that is one of the best ways to avoid what happened to this guy.  It at least may help wake you up so you can figure out what to do. 
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MechAg94

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2022, 09:05:52 AM »
I showed my Dad the video of this raid and his response was "why didn't they just sneak on in the house?"  In other words, they opened the door quietly then yelled "Search Warrant Police" as they entered.  It seemed to us their tactics were pretty much designed to wake up the residents and trigger a panic response just as guns and tactical lights were pointed at them.  In other words, if the homeowner is armed, the tactics are designed to trigger a response that allows police to legally shoot.   

Also, why did they yell "Search Warrant Police"?  Why not just yell "Police"?  It seems to me that just confuses things for residents that are being surprised. 
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MechAg94

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 09:07:24 AM »
It was a legal shoot, but still a bad shoot.
You are probably right, but I thought what some other cops did was technically legal also and that didn't end up mattering. 
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Ben

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2022, 09:19:52 AM »
Also, why did they yell "Search Warrant Police"?  Why not just yell "Police"?  It seems to me that just confuses things for residents that are being surprised.

Someone breaking down my front door who yells "police" is still a home invader. Anybody can yell "police".

I'm not knocking your reply, just pointing out that people impersonate the police all the time. If I were a home invader, yelling "police!" would be a good confusion strategy.
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DittoHead

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2022, 09:40:01 AM »
Us vs. Them

This mentality is the root of many problems with police today and I've seen it deeply rooted in the majority of police departments I've worked with. Many people mistake it for racism but it's really a wider issue.
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Pb

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 09:54:07 AM »
Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.

It seems like a legitimate tragedy.  I will leave it to others who know more to determine what the police did wrong.

MechAg94

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 09:56:27 AM »
Someone breaking down my front door who yells "police" is still a home invader. Anybody can yell "police".

I'm not knocking your reply, just pointing out that people impersonate the police all the time. If I were a home invader, yelling "police!" would be a good confusion strategy.
That is a good point.  I just don't know what would be better, even if they were still outside. 

I just thought yelling "search warrant police" leans toward the confusing side for someone waking up to people in their house.  I think I might catch the first word spoken, but not sure about the 3rd especially with 4 or 5 guys yelling.  I am not sure what would be better than just police. 

One thing that bugs me online is people who seem to think them yelling "police" means everyone should immediately drop whatever is in their hands and go prone on the ground. 
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MechAg94

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 09:59:11 AM »
Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.

It seems like a legitimate tragedy.  I will leave it to others who know more to determine what the police did wrong.
But looking for a murder suspect would seem to justify spending a little time watching the location to determine if the suspect is there and if there are better opportunities to arrest them. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RoadKingLarry

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2022, 10:06:49 AM »
While I am NOT advocating for illegal actions I would not shed a tear if after a botched "no knoc"k raid that killed an innocent person or people or dog(s) some person or persons unknown when full Killdozer-Falling Down on the those responsible (police, DA, judge...).
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charby

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 10:07:14 AM »
Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?

You would think they could surround the house with a team of officers and serve the search warrant at the front door with a normal knock or ring the doorbell. The officers surrounding the house could catch any runners. If it's for drugs, send the K-9 in as soon as the warrant is served.

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Ben

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2022, 10:33:49 AM »
Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?

You would think they could surround the house with a team of officers and serve the search warrant at the front door with a normal knock or ring the doorbell. The officers surrounding the house could catch any runners. If it's for drugs, send the K-9 in as soon as the warrant is served.

This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.
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charby

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2022, 10:55:10 AM »
This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.

They need a tactical sewer team to wait with a robot in the sanitary sewer to catch any drugs coming out the pipe.

Rural property, just pump the septic tank.

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Pb

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2022, 10:58:36 AM »
Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?



Well, if it is a murderer suspect, it might give him less time to get a weapon to shoot you.

Bogie

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Re: No Knock Death
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2022, 11:00:15 AM »
Just legalize it, tax it, and sell it in liquor stores. All of it.
 
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