No Knock Death

[charby]

Well, if it is a murderer suspect, it might give him less time to get a weapon to shoot you.

Surveillance, eventually they will leave. Arrest them elsewhere.

[Pb]

Surveillance, eventually they will leave. Arrest them elsewhere.

Maybe so...

[MechAg94]

The problem I have is law enforcement (and judges) have shown they are unable to use no-knock warrants responsibly.  For that reason, that tool should be taken away. 

I think if any exception is allowed, the exception will become the rule because SWAT teams have convinced themselves that they are necessary for their safety and judges (on average) don't seem to question search warrants enough. 

[cordex]

Some thoughts in no particular order.

I don't care if someone flushes drugs.  If the cops can't prove their case because a stash got flushed they can bust the guy again some other time.

I don't have any insight into whether a no-knock was reasonable in this case but an apparently innocent person was killed, which sucks no matter what. 

Assuming the cops hit the right house, then while reinforcing your door might help, it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.

FWIW, I didn't hear "search warrant police" I heard "police search warrant".

While we often like to casually throw around the suggestion to arrest dangerous people in public spaces as an obviously safer option than serving the arrest warrant in their home, when a public arrest goes bad and you end up with a gunfight in a crowded street then we chastise them for not holding off and arresting the perp at home.  An arrest of a potentially violent person can go bad wherever it happens.  Also, if this is a search warrant, then they probably had to serve it at the house.

[Bogie]

Another problem is that... no matter the quality of character of the person who gets shot, there are people who instantly begin to recommend them for sainthood.

[MechAg94]

Some thoughts in no particular order.

I don't care if someone flushes drugs.  If the cops can't prove their case because a stash got flushed they can bust the guy again some other time.

I don't have any insight into whether a no-knock was reasonable in this case but an apparently innocent person was killed, which sucks no matter what. 

Assuming the cops hit the right house, then while reinforcing your door might help, it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.

FWIW, I didn't hear "search warrant police" I heard "police search warrant".

While we often like to casually throw around the suggestion to arrest dangerous people in public spaces as an obviously safer option than serving the arrest warrant in their home, when a public arrest goes bad and you end up with a gunfight in a crowded street then we chastise them for not holding off and arresting the perp at home.  An arrest of a potentially violent person can go bad wherever it happens.  Also, if this is a search warrant, then they probably had to serve it at the house.

Agree with the bolded.  Same advice from my Mother about not hanging around with wrong people, bad things can happen around them and you may not want to be too close. 

[Ben]

Agree with the bolded.  Same advice from my Mother about not hanging around with wrong people, bad things can happen around them and you may not want to be too close.

I agree with that as well, but there is still the all too common, "oops, wrong address" scenario.

[HankB]

I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.

[dogmush]

Everytime I read about this kinda thing, or how it would endanger cops to do things differently  I come back to the clear "Us vs. Them" mentality US law enforcement has cultivated.

I'm running out of reasons not to take them at their word.

[MikeB]

While I don’t want To have Police Officers not going home after their shifts. I often hear the excuse and yes I will call it an excuse that Police Officers want to go home at night. Well we all do, and they chose a job that can have a higher risk. Their job is supposedly to protect the public.

Either do that or get another job. Too much of things like no knock or whisper warrants and other tactics are excused by that attitude. Police should endeavor to be more like the unofficial Coast Guard motto, they have to go out they don’t have to come back.

Of course when a suspect is legitimately resisting or fighting we shouldn’t second guess them so much in the heat of the moment, but they should avoid creating those moments by using no knock and other such tactics.

[kgbsquirrel]

I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.

Mmhmm

[Hawkmoon]

I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.

I agree.

[Hawkmoon]

Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.

But that would be an arrest warrant, not a search warrant.

[Nick1911]

I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.

Agreed. 

In my opinion, forced entry into a home by any party is moral (and often legal) grounds for immediate use of lethal force.  I believe there are safer ways to execute a search warrant for all involved.

[tokugawa]

This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.

 The drug disposal flush is utter bullshit in this era- there is no way in hell someone is going to jail for an amount of drugs they could flush down the head. It's an excuse, and a damned poor one.

[Ben]

The drug disposal flush is utter bullshit in this era- there is no way in hell someone is going to jail for an amount of drugs they could flush down the head. It's an excuse, and a damned poor one.

Absolutely.

[griz]

If flushing drugs was an actual concern, the War On Drugs could easily be won merely by the police knocking on the door of every drug dealer.  It might tax the municipal water system, but the drugs would soon be gone.

Of course, we Libertarians think legalizing those same drugs would solve the problem without so many police, but that's for another thread.

[HankB]

When I was a kid back in the '60s, a TV news crew accompanied police who were serving a warrant. They "knocked and announced" and within seconds were pounding on the door with a sledge hammer. (No battering rams back then.) They pounded and pounded, and then a small window in the door opened and the occupant asked who was pounding on his door.

"POLICE! WARRANT! OPEN UP NOW!

The resident demanded to see the warrant. There was quite a bit of back & forth between the cops and the occupant, but he DID NOT open the door until the cops produced the warrant - and he made them hold it up so he could read it. 

Several occupants were in the house, much anger by the cops at the guy for refusing to open the door until he could read the warrant, and even MORE anger because the door was HEAVILY reinforced inside - they even had a bar across it like the gate in an old time fort or castle. Why? "We have a lot of crime here and you cops don't come when we call for help."

No drugs were found, no arrests made.

This was decades ago and perhaps my childhood memory of the incident isn't perfect, but it still makes me think - why wouldn't a REAL drug dealer today fortify his own drug den to delay forced entry?

[dogmush]

Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy.  Especially the ones the police actually catch.

It wouldn't take very much at all to fortify windows and build a two door entryway with a fortified inside door and IED anti personnel charges between the doors.  That would protect against SWAT teams and rival criminals.  That no one apparently does is a testament to criminal's lack of creativity.

[WLJ]

Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy.  Especially the ones the police actually catch.

The semi smart ones go into politics

[MechAg94]

Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy.  Especially the ones the police actually catch.

It wouldn't take very much at all to fortify windows and build a two door entryway with a fortified inside door and IED anti personnel charges between the doors.  That would protect against SWAT teams and rival criminals.  That no one apparently does is a testament to criminal's lack of creativity.

I think their solution is just to relocate often.  If they fortify a house, the cops will just surround it and bring in the armored vehicle.  Better to just move around.  Killing cops in a botched forced entry doesn't do them any good. 

[cordex]

...it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.

It looks like warrants were issued for three apartments in the same building.

One belonging to the mother of Mekhi Speed, a suspect in a January murder.  Mekhi Speed was a cousin of Amir Locke.
One belonging to another suspect.
One belonging to Amir Locke's brother, where Amir Locke was killed.

So as far as my statement above, I can't fault Locke for sleeping on his brother's couch and getting caught up in a raid relating to his cousin.

Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy.  Especially the ones the police actually catch.

Very much so.  Any honest cop will tell you that they only catch the stupid ones.

I think their solution is just to relocate often.  If they fortify a house, the cops will just surround it and bring in the armored vehicle.  Better to just move around.  Killing cops in a botched forced entry doesn't do them any good. 

Excellent points.  Also, being caught isn't game over for most criminals.

[charby]

State of Minnesota recently has a high percentage of sending to cops to prison, I can see the officer who shot him going to prison with the other recent 5. Chauvin, Potter, et. al.

[Fly320s]

State of Minnesota recently has a high percentage of sending to cops to prison, I can see the officer who shot him going to prison with the other recent 5. Chauvin, Potter, et. al.

No way.  The forced entry was lawful and Locke reached for a gun.  The case is a cut and dried lawful use of deadly force.

That doesn't make it right, though.

[charby]

No way.  The forced entry was lawful and Locke reached for a gun.  The case is a cut and dried lawful use of deadly force.

That doesn't make it right, though.

This is Minnesota we are talking about, the state with 3rd degree murder on the books.