man pulls knife on FLA ccw

[gunsmith]

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6306416527112#sp=show-clips

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-road-rage-confrontation-man-knife-assault-charge?dicbo=v2-1028e31577b72b8e8891927391156fdb
 knife guy arrested, but ccw guy made a lot of errors.
 first error, being to darned close to idiot with a knife.
 it took way to long to get gun/knife guy could have stuck him as he struggled to acquire gun.
my carry piece would be out if approached by a knife wielder.
second, is arguin law with an armed idiot.
The last time I pulled a gun my only verbiage was "go away".
3rd, he put his gun away???!!!??? - i understand if you are a safe distance and the cops are pulling up - but that didn't happen here
edited to ad - he turned his back on the guy too
however many mistakes it was a great outcome, dummy with knife lost legally because , well, he was pretty freaking stupid.
he is really lucky, ccw could have drilled him for being that close/confrontational with a knife

[K Frame]

I bet the knife guy is really glad that he called the police now.

[gunsmith]

I bet the knife guy is really glad that he called the police now.

 

[Bogie]

Betcha he is part of the "gunz are bad" crew, and still doesn't understand...

[HankB]

It turned out OK, but this can be a learning experience for everyone - the points in gunsmith's critique are valid.

As for myself, first off, on the (fortunately) rare occasion when some knucklehead road rage idiot tries to pick a fight with me, I don't do anything to escalate - things can turn out badly. So far, I've been able to avoid street fights - that's my goal.

Having said that, this is one of those instances when pocket carry would be good - if the guy already had his hand on a gun in his pocket, drawing and firing would only take about half a second, so the guy with the knife could have been drilled before he even completed the lunge and slash with his knife.

[dogmush]

Another reason it's  a shame so many ranges won't let you draw from a holster. 

Having spent a lot of time in the past two years working on my pistol skills, including drawing from concealment, I have realized most people don't realize that it's as difficult as it is.  From what I've seen, I suspect that a 1.5 to 2 second draw and first round  hit is at the fast end for most CCW.  3 sec is probably  pretty common.

A shot timer is an invaluable training tool.  You can lie to yourself about how good you are, but the timer doesn't lie.

Folks need to practice that draw and first round more than any other skillset, and almost no one does.

[Ben]

Another reason it's  a shame so many ranges won't let you draw from a holster. 

Having spent a lot of time in the past two years working on my pistol skills, including drawing from concealment, I have realized most people don't realize that it's as difficult as it is.  From what I've seen, I suspect that a 1.5 to 2 second draw and first round  hit is at the fast end for most CCW.  3 sec is probably  pretty common.

A shot timer is an invaluable training tool.  You can lie to yourself about how good you are, but the timer doesn't lie.

Folks need to practice that draw and first round more than any other skillset, and almost no one does.

Agree 100%.

I actually have to practice a lot more drawing from various concealment garments. I have a really bad habit of going to the club for my "shoot and move" drills with an OWB holster and a tucked in shirt, rather than an IWB holster or an untucked shirt or jacket over the OWB. I'm always congratulating myself on my draw speed. Until I do drills that require getting a garment out of the way. 

[dogmush]

Me too.  I spend a lot of time working my G17 from a war belt and safariland holster.

I make myself do at least three mags of my P365XL from concealment every  other week. Mag 1 is draw and one shot, a-zone hit, on the timer. Mag 2 is draw and shoot two targets to work on transitions. Mag 3 is either bill drills, or a dueling tree.  That's  my bare minimum.  I should  do more, but it's  so much more fun to run the tacticool rig super fast.

[HankB]

Another reason it's  a shame so many ranges won't let you draw from a holster. 

Having spent a lot of time in the past two years working on my pistol skills, including drawing from concealment, I have realized most people don't realize that it's as difficult as it is.  From what I've seen, I suspect that a 1.5 to 2 second draw and first round  hit is at the fast end for most CCW.  3 sec is probably  pretty common.

A shot timer is an invaluable training tool.  You can lie to yourself about how good you are, but the timer doesn't lie.

Folks need to practice that draw and first round more than any other skillset, and almost no one does.

Very true.

And even if NOT drawing from concealment, a lot of people aren't nearly as fast as they think they are. I remember a match exercise where there was a timed stage to draw and fire at 3 yards - no concealment. Only TWO of us were able to do it in less than 1 second . . . barely . . . and get the center zone hit.

[lee n. field]

It turned out OK, but this can be a learning experience for everyone - the points in gunsmith's critique are valid.

As for myself, first off, on the (fortunately) rare occasion when some knucklehead road rage idiot tries to pick a fight with me, I don't do anything to escalate - things can turn out badly. So far, I've been able to avoid street fights - that's my goal.

Having said that, this is one of those instances when pocket carry would be good - if the guy already had his hand on a gun in his pocket, drawing and firing would only take about half a second, so the guy with the knife could have been drilled before he even completed the lunge and slash with his knife.

https://youtu.be/CwzebTRI6b4?t=162

[HankB]

https://youtu.be/CwzebTRI6b4?t=162

No.

Drawing the gun from one's pocket and then raising it one handed to contact distance with your opponent's face is slow and potentially makes you more vulnerable to having your hand deflected or grabbed. Keeping the gun at your waist and just raising the muzzle enough to shoot an opponent at arm's length distance COM as soon as you clear your pocket is more viable.

[dogmush]

No.

Drawing the gun from one's pocket and then raising it one handed to contact distance with your opponent's face is slow and potentially makes you more vulnerable to having your hand deflected or grabbed. Keeping the gun at your waist and just raising the muzzle enough to shoot an opponent at arm's length distance COM as soon as you clear your pocket is more viable.

Have you tried this?  It's not hard, per se, but it's harder then you'd think it would be. 

I train shooting from retention at about the nipple level.  That is, I grasp firearm, clear holster up, then the gun to where I would punch out, then fire.  Among other things it requires some thought on how to index the gun so it hits the bad guy and not you.  One of the things my trainer pointed out in my concealed pistol class is that if someone is right up on you in a fight 99 times out of 100 your off hand is on their chest trying to get some space.  If you just draw and fire from retention without some forethought, you can easily shoot yourself in the arm or hand.  Especially if you are shooting up towards COM from a hip or pocket retention.

[dogmush]

So I just finally got to a spot where I could watch the video.

Bike dude opened his vest and reached at about 51.5sec, and at 54 sec he was pointing

his gunt at knife guy's head.  So call that a 2.5 sec draw from the inside pocket of what appears to be one of those concealment vests (which are not known for speed).  So not great, not terrible.  Pocket carry inside a concealment vest or coat is one of the slowest presentations I've found, and why I don't use them anymore.

Biker dude could have just as easily got back on his bike and left, then showed the cops the video of the guy's truck, license plate and knife though.

[Ben]

John Lovell and Craig Douglas have a good video on retention shooting:

https://youtu.be/zqnaoI11YpA

I can't find it right now, but Douglas does another one talking about instead of attempting to draw your gun if you find yourself in grappling distance, rather going to a martial art or using one of the punching knives to gain space. Only if you're trained, obviously.

[HankB]

Have you tried this?  It's not hard, per se, but it's harder then you'd think it would be. 

I train shooting from retention at about the nipple level.  That is, I grasp firearm, clear holster up, then the gun to where I would punch out, then fire.  Among other things it requires some thought on how to index the gun so it hits the bad guy and not you.  One of the things my trainer pointed out in my concealed pistol class is that if someone is right up on you in a fight 99 times out of 100 your off hand is on their chest trying to get some space.  If you just draw and fire from retention without some forethought, you can easily shoot yourself in the arm or hand.  Especially if you are shooting up towards COM from a hip or pocket retention.

Yes, I practice it. You make a good point about shooting one's hand - for that very reason I eschew practice using live ammo with my off hand in front of the muzzle. 

Live fire training is necessary of course, but this is one of those instances where a laser is useful for "dry" practice - you can draw and see where your gun is actually pointing. (You have to be careful not to fool yourself by moving the laser to the desired position.) Primer-powered ammo using wax or plastic bullets is good for this type of practice as well . . . if you can actually find primers these days.

[dogmush]

Yep, 100 ways to skin that cat, the key is just to train in what you pick, so you aren't figuring it out on the fly.

In class, one of the things we did was draw index and fire from retention into a target about 8" in front of you.  Just so you know what the blast and shot are going to feel like with the gun essentially resting on your chest.  Even with ear pro that was a loud shot.

Ben, I tend to agree with Douglas that if you can, get out of arms reach, then draw and fire, but I'm a relatively healthy, kinda big guy with at least a little grappling training and experience so I have that option.  Not everyone does.


As an aside, since we're having the conversation, drawing from a pocket on a timer (and videoing myself doing it) is what made me give up on pocket carry as viable for my life.  Too slow and awkward for me with the clothes I wear.  It obviously works for some folks, but I couldn't get it to be fast and consistent enough.

[Ben]

Ben, I tend to agree with Douglas that if you can, get out of arms reach, then draw and fire, but I'm a relatively healthy, kinda big guy with at least a little grappling training and experience so I have that option.  Not everyone does.

I was a little unclear too. Douglas was talking about when you're already hands on if someone has grabbed you or is attempting to, vs just being in "grabbing distance".

[Ben]

This isn't the punching knife one, but it's another Douglas "break the clinch" video. Interesting point  that cops in this situation often end up getting clocked by doing the "break and back up". Douglas trains to move yourself behind the assailant using a variety of techniques.

https://youtu.be/x6tUG01vTiA

[Jim147]

I haven't been practicing from the hip or tight to the body in a few years. This is a reminder to get back on it.

[MechAg94]

I keep telling myself I need to do more draw practice (unloaded at home).  I have done some, but not near enough.

[Bogie]

I tend to carry a J-frame inside a vest pocket. The right lower pocket, which I have my hand on when Masked Dude walks toward me. I figure I'll probably catch the damn thing on fire.
 
If I am not wearing a vest, I have the G43 in a pants holster, and I've got my hand in my pocket.
 
Fueling up at the gas station that the locals call Thunderdome can be interesting.
 
"Go away, or I'll shoot your ass" is generally very understood.
 
I've had customers on the other side of the pump thank me.