Author Topic: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .  (Read 2056 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,993
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2022, 07:14:34 PM »
I think it's significant because much history, including our founding documents, was written in cursive. 

This is a good point. After my dad died, I found several of his old books that he brought over with him from Germany. Even from just being from the 1940s, they still used an older German cursive (I forget what it's called) that almost looks Cyrillic. It was used from the 1400s to the early 1900s for everything from history and science texts to literature.

Just because it's not used anymore doesn't mean there isn't value to knowing it. Not everything is going to be "translated" to modern text. Though I remember my mom and dad teaching me to read German with an old elementary school primer with that script, I have forgotten much of it and trying to read these old books now is quite time consuming, but interesting, because not only is the script older, but many things have a different meaning than they do now and I'm big on preserving history, versus "updating" history.

I'm also someone who wishes they hadn't stopped teaching Latin before I got to High School. As fistful mentioned, not all education is about training workers. There is great value in a Renaissance education to better understand the world.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,205
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2022, 09:25:16 PM »
I pretty much print. So did my father. We're not really cursive-minded geeks.
 
And... I also spent too much time in graphic design and drafting type stuff...
Blog under construction

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,205
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2022, 09:38:33 PM »
Oh, and...
 
I type faster than most folks can write with cursive. Or printing. Or anything. Because that's how I frickin' write ANYTHING that has to be understood.
 
My handwriting? It sucks. It sucked since the damn nuns taught me how to do it.
 
My printing? It's fair.
Blog under construction

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2022, 02:14:40 AM »
Penmanship (searching for a term that encompasses both block printing and cursive) is a mixed bag. At one time, far in the distant past, my cursive handwriting was good enough that many people commented on it. Too much work on computers has resulted in serious degradation of my penmanship. Unless I consciously slow down and work at it, my cursive today is so bad that half the time I can't read it.

Conversely, my mother (born very early in the 20th century) didn't write in cursive. I have no idea where she learned it, because both her parents wrote in cursive, but my mother wrote in what I would describe as "elegant" block printing. It was very precise, lines all straight and very minor variations in letter height, quite beautiful to look at -- and absolutely indecipherable. Of course, the same has to be said about my father's cursive. Very neat and precise, every document a work of art -- as long as you didn't need to read it.

I do agree with Perd about the loss of education in the schools. When I went to high school in the late 1950s/early 1960s, my high school offered Spanish, French, German, and Latin. I'm not sure what they offer now, but I know they dropped German years ago, and I'm fairly certain they now offer Chinese (which is probably not a bad thing). But then they get into entire multi-year curricula in things like performing arts. When my daughter attended the school, one of her assignments was to go to the city where the state capital is located and attend a garden and flower show. My wife and I took her -- and we never figured out what the purpose of the assignment was.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,592
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2022, 11:06:44 AM »
Back in the mid to late 90's I had to go to printed all caps because the forms all got scanned into the computer. I had to do it so many years that is the way I write now. My girls high school still teaches cursive.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2022, 01:21:38 PM »
Back in the mid to late 90's I had to go to printed all caps because the forms all got scanned into the computer. I had to do it so many years that is the way I write now. My girls high school still teaches cursive.

High school seems a little late to teach it. But it's better than teaching them CRT, so...
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,861
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2022, 01:32:18 PM »
A case could be made for teaching folks how to read it, so that they could easily[ish]* read primary sources over 100 years old. The same could be true of Latin, although that's a second language instead of just a second alphabet, so a bigger investment of limited student hours.

As far as learning to write cursive (and we spent a good bit of time on it back in elementary school) I don't see the reason to teach kids.  As Ben has said, a signature these days is more a glyph then cursive writing in most cases.  Teaching how to write in cursive to a kid in elementary school now is akin to teaching them how to make a nice horse whip or run a spinning wheel:  It used to be really good knowledge to have, but now it's kinda a waste except as a party trick.


*I say "ish" because even though I read and write in cursive, many of the documents discussed in this thread as reason for learning it are pretty hard to decipher due to age, syntax changes, and penmanship of the writers.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,993
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2022, 01:38:17 PM »
A case could be made for teaching folks how to read it, so that they could easily[ish]* read primary sources over 100 years old. The same could be true of Latin, although that's a second language instead of just a second alphabet, so a bigger investment of limited student hours.

I could sign on to teaching the reading of cursive vs the writing of cursive as a way to preserve the knowledge.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,861
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2022, 01:44:36 PM »
I'm not a expert on education or anything, and I don't have any idea what the current curriculum is for elementary school (that's where I learned it), I'm just saying there's only so many hours in a school day, and if someone asked me which elementary school knowledge was better to have: How to write in Cursive, or how to write Basic, I know which I'd pick.  (Although these days it's probably Python.)

Not to be a more useful worker or anything, but to navigate the world successfully.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,734
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2022, 02:23:51 PM »
I asked my niece and nephew about it once.  I believe they learned basic cursive writing, learned to sign their name, and really didn't use it much after.  They were both aware of it, but could only read it with difficulty. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,632
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2022, 02:58:08 PM »
Dropping cursive from the elementary school curriculum might make sense if they were making room for something worthwhile, but DEI or CRT or Common Core nonsense doesn't fall into that category. As it is, I thought it was a useful discipline and always felt I was learning SOMEthing useful. Although hearing the nuns harp about penmanship all the time eventually got tiresome.

I sometimes wonder why they don't teach shorthand in elementary school, to make note-taking at lectures in high school and college more efficient.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,993
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2022, 03:15:47 PM »
I sometimes wonder why they don't teach shorthand in elementary school, to make note-taking at lectures in high school and college more efficient.

And I thought I was old.  :laugh:

Laptops and tablets for note taking nowadays.  =)

https://youtu.be/eTkw9WOzhDs?t=156
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

zxcvbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,231
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2022, 03:35:24 PM »
I'm not a expert on education or anything, and I don't have any idea what the current curriculum is for elementary school (that's where I learned it), I'm just saying there's only so many hours in a school day, and if someone asked me which elementary school knowledge was better to have: How to write in Cursive, or how to write Basic, I know which I'd pick.  (Although these days it's probably Python.)

Not to be a more useful worker or anything, but to navigate the world successfully.

I doubt that BASIC or Python programming is a good way to learn logic.  And teaching coding without any fundamental logic is probably counterproductive.  The kids would be better off solving puzzles.
"It's good, though..."

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,861
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2022, 03:48:22 PM »
I didn't mean it as a way to learn logic, but as a way to better utilize the tools around them. Tools that are increasingly reliant on software to work.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,259
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2022, 04:10:34 PM »
High school seems a little late to teach it. But it's better than teaching them CRT, so...

I was thinking the same thing. I clearly remember the cursive alphabet on a display above the blackboard in my 6th grade classroom, and I sort of think we started learning cursive in the 4th or 5th grade.

But that was in the 1950s, when the United States of America was still a nation.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2022, 05:10:52 PM »
Dropping cursive from the elementary school curriculum might make sense if they were making room for something worthwhile, but DEI or CRT or Common Core nonsense doesn't fall into that category.

This. I wouldn't prioritize cursive above teaching a solid basis in American history, classic books (including great novels), mathematics, civics, science, geography, etc. But the real mistake is to think that schools should only teach things that are "useful." Kids need more than that.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,861
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2022, 05:58:21 PM »
Perd I won't argue kids need more than that, but zi would say they don't need more than that from schools.  Or at least not until secondary education,  but I would probably push it to college.

Elementary education should absolutely be useful stuff, and specifically the useful stuff they will build upon to be functioning adults. Language, and how it works. Numbers, and how they work. How to communicate, both with speech and writing (do they even teach a 5 paragraph essay format anymore?) Certainly history and US Government,  but it's [dis]functioning,  not an editorial on how it came to be.  Logical thought, and machine logic.  How to operate the computers that run the world.

The "more" that kids absolutely do need should come from parents, family, and non .gov sources until, at minimum,  high school and some demonstrated critical thinking skills.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,734
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2022, 06:43:06 PM »
Dropping cursive from the elementary school curriculum might make sense if they were making room for something worthwhile, but DEI or CRT or Common Core nonsense doesn't fall into that category. As it is, I thought it was a useful discipline and always felt I was learning SOMEthing useful. Although hearing the nuns harp about penmanship all the time eventually got tiresome.

I sometimes wonder why they don't teach shorthand in elementary school, to make note-taking at lectures in high school and college more efficient.
In my experience, short hand is a terrible way to take notes.  Yeah, you can write faster and in some cases, the shorthand abbreviations replacing certain words makes sense, but shorthand was intended to be translated back to full writing pretty soon after writing it.  I found that trying to read short hand notes a month later before a test was very difficult if not impossible. 

I haven't taken a college class in quite some time.  Anyone know if written class notes are still a thing? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,861
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2022, 08:23:09 PM »
.  Anyone know if written class notes are still a thing?

They are not, and haven't really been a thing for at least a decade, if not longer. It was half and half written notes and laptops when I left college at the turn of the century.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,396
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2022, 10:09:52 PM »
Headmaster Hapley wouldn't allow "devices" in most classrooms, either, but that's just instinct. I could be wrong.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

JN01

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 888
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2022, 10:25:51 PM »
Schools could stop teaching cursive, and analog clocks, and replace the multiplication table with a calculator. They could also drop history, art, music, and everything else that's not needed for children's future careers. If we want schools to just make children into workers loyal comrades.

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2022, 10:40:08 PM »
I doubt that BASIC or Python programming is a good way to learn logic.  And teaching coding without any fundamental logic is probably counterproductive.  The kids would be better off solving puzzles.

FWIW, I was introduced to BASIC in 6th grade by the shop teacher.  That was a critical bit that led me to end up with a bachelors in computer technology and a career as a software engineer.

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,592
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2022, 09:44:38 AM »
I guess I should have said my daughter still uses cursive in high school. She has one teacher that makes them do written notes. She is taking a coding class. I need to check and see what they are using.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,249
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2022, 09:51:22 AM »
Govt officials writing cursive or not should be the least of our worries. I'm more worried about their mental state



« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 10:05:30 AM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,900
Re: This says SOMEthing about who's running our government . . .
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2022, 10:04:56 AM »
Name the band?

How about "The Perverts"?