Author Topic: EVs not ready for prime time?  (Read 5413 times)

zxcvbob

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #100 on: December 28, 2023, 02:02:21 PM »
...The car says fully charging the battery would take 14 hours on an extension cord, 3 hours on a proper charger. At this rate it looks like I'm going to spend the whole trip on gasoline, dragging around an empty battery and motors...a true compliance car

I'm not sure but I think t's worse than that, you'll be using gasoline to charge their battery for them on the road.  HTH :)
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sumpnz

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #101 on: December 28, 2023, 03:13:33 PM »
I'm not sure but I think t's worse than that, you'll be using gasoline to charge their battery for them on the road.  HTH :)

Assuming the batteries are taking a charge, any power the ICE makes in excess of what the car needs to move will be used to power the charging system. So, if you drive conservatively (lift and coast, etc) the battery will slowly charge while you drive.

zxcvbob

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #102 on: December 28, 2023, 05:50:43 PM »
Assuming the batteries are taking a charge, any power the ICE makes in excess of what the car needs to move will be used to power the charging system. So, if you drive conservatively (lift and coast, etc) the battery will slowly charge while you drive.

Yes, and because its charging the battery won't the ICE use more fuel?  That energy is not free.
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sumpnz

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2023, 07:28:25 PM »
Yes, and because its charging the battery won't the ICE use more fuel?  That energy is not free.

For the most part it only charges with waste power (coasting and idling mostly), regenerative braking, and any other waste energy recovery schemes they chose to utilize.

zahc

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #104 on: December 28, 2023, 11:29:34 PM »
I've burned about 2/3 of a tank and the battery hasn't budged. It has come up to 3% a couple times, presumably from regenerative braking. Which makes sense, it has a plug and you are supposed to get your juice from the wall instead of from burning gasoline.
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Bogie

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #105 on: December 29, 2023, 01:51:16 PM »
We just got a Ford Maverick hybrid truck.
 
Peppy little thing. It runs on battery about half the time, and then the engine comes on. Yesterday, had to run an errand, and the dash showed "battery" use for the first dozen or so blocks. I hate the bed for carrying parts - to access stuff,  you pretty much have to drop the tailgate, because the sides are taller... Four door cab, so a lot of stuff just goes in the back seat. And if I'm driving, it is a three-seater, because drivers side rear has zero legroom.
 
My take on the future?
 
Someone is going to have to develop a battery standard, and get the others to accept it. Size, shape, electronics. That battery will plug into any compatible vehicle.
 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2023, 12:30:43 AM »
My next door neighbor has a Hyundai Ioniq and she has a special charging cord with a good sized in-line converter (transformer?) to charge he car from a standard wall outlet. It seems to suit her just fine for topping off the battery every day since most of her trips are local, but I don't think she wants to admit to just how long it takes her to charge the vehicle from the wall plug if she lets the battery get really low.

Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."

A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank.  Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.

A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.

Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.

And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.

It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2023, 12:49:09 AM »
We just got a Ford Maverick hybrid truck.
 
Peppy little thing. It runs on battery about half the time, and then the engine comes on. Yesterday, had to run an errand, and the dash showed "battery" use for the first dozen or so blocks. I hate the bed for carrying parts - to access stuff,  you pretty much have to drop the tailgate, because the sides are taller... Four door cab, so a lot of stuff just goes in the back seat. And if I'm driving, it is a three-seater, because drivers side rear has zero legroom.

What's the bed length on the Maverick? From the photos on Ford's web site, it looks like it can't be more than 5 feet.
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HankB

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2023, 08:10:26 AM »
Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."

A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank.  Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.

A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.

Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.

And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.

It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.
That's all very good and useful information, and is EXACTLY the sort of thing I would research if I were interested in getting an electric car myself.

I found a reference that my neighbor's electric Hyundai Ioniq has a 38 kWh battery, so if it were completely depleted, plugging it into a wall socket (as she does) it would take over a day to fully charge it up. Since she says it recharges overnight, it's certain that all she's doing is topping off the battery after short local trips.

She DID come close to being "stranded" once on the way back from San Antonio when her recharging plans didn't work out . . . but that's another story.
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zahc

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2023, 10:02:13 AM »
The unit the cars actually use to describe charging rate is miles per hour. As in miles of range added, per hour of charging. Most people don't have any intuition for what a kWh means in terms of range. And just like MPG, kWh translates into different range for different vehicles.

The Tesla chargers by me have a rating of 350A / 500V at full duty cycle, which is 175kW. For giggles I calculated that's about 260hp, so about the same amount of power as a V6 engine. I think the supercharger is designed for 300kW or maybe even 500kW but I don't know if there are any of those out there.
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sumpnz

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2023, 10:51:15 AM »
The unit the cars actually use to describe charging rate is miles per hour. As in miles of range added, per hour of charging. Most people don't have any intuition for what a kWh means in terms of range. And just like MPG, kWh translates into different range for different vehicles.

The Tesla chargers by me have a rating of 350A / 500V at full duty cycle, which is 175kW. For giggles I calculated that's about 260hp, so about the same amount of power as a V6 engine. I think the supercharger is designed for 300kW or maybe even 500kW but I don't know if there are any of those out there.

BEV trucks will require 350kw minimum for chargers, 500kw to me sorta reasonable,  1+mw ideally.  Imagine a truck stop with a few dozen of those running simultaneously.

dogmush

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2023, 11:26:50 AM »
It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.

zxcvbob

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2023, 11:39:07 AM »
Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."

A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank.  Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.

A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.

Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.

And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.

It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.

What are you using for the conversion factor for kWh to gallons, about 1.4?  A home 220V welder outlet should be able to provide about 7.5 "gallons" per hour, assuming it's wired with full-size conductors. (for dedicated welder circuits, the NEC at least used to let you use smaller conductors based on the duty cycle of the welder)  Or does the charger limit you to 20 or 30A?
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sumpnz

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2023, 11:41:20 AM »
It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.

The batteries can catch fire spontaneously.  Gas tanks don't. 

When my car burned it was the 12v battery that started it.  Fuel never burned, or at least not until the battery fire caused a line to break, and just what might have dribbled out.

cordex

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2023, 11:44:54 AM »
It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.
I was thinking the same thing, but by the same token, I’m sure 130 years of gasoline powered vehicle development has made gas tanks much safer than they were in their first decades of use.  Plus, modern electric vehicles require much larger batteries and use them as significant structural elements in a way that differs significantly from gas tanks.

dogmush

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2023, 01:58:08 PM »
The batteries can catch fire spontaneously.  Gas tanks don't. 

When my car burned it was the 12v battery that started it.  Fuel never burned, or at least not until the battery fire caused a line to break, and just what might have dribbled out.

Not really.  They can catch fire if punctured or overheated by another fire nearby. You have the same battery in your pocket most of the day, and it rarely burns people's asses.  I've also seen plenty of carbeques that clearly involved the fuel tank.  It happens in accidents commonly enough.

I honestly don't know if one is a significantly more dangerous than the other, but both are traveling firestarter, I think we're all just use to carting a bunch of gas around.

I wonder if there were a bunch of horse people in the early 1900's kvetching about gas tanks.


AZRedhawk44

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2023, 06:58:44 PM »
What are you using for the conversion factor for kWh to gallons, about 1.4?  A home 220V welder outlet should be able to provide about 7.5 "gallons" per hour, assuming it's wired with full-size conductors. (for dedicated welder circuits, the NEC at least used to let you use smaller conductors based on the duty cycle of the welder)  Or does the charger limit you to 20 or 30A?

No conversion factor, I'm considering 1kW-hr equivalent to 1 "gallon" in terms of what you're storing in your vehicle and the rate of transfer on different circuits.

120v outlets are rarely dedicated to one device, so most devices on a 20A circuit are designed to only pull 10 amps at most.  A car plugged into a 120v circuit will pull 10 amps, about 1200 watts, 1.2 kilowatts, or 1.2 "gallons" in terms of what you're storing in the vehicle.

220v outlets are generally 30 amp and can output 6000-7000 watts.  I suppose I undershot my estimate in that context.
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WLJ

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2023, 06:17:56 PM »
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoff

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html

Hmm, very minor damage to a battery pack can result in an essentially new car being scrapped, at least in British Columbia.

Given the higher than you'd like probability of spontaneous combustion that's not entirely unreasonable.

That said I think some important advances that will be demanded by the marketplace (probably via insurance companies) will be finding ways to make batteries that A) don't self-immolate from minor damage, and B) can have damaged/failing portions replaced without scrapping the whole battery pack.

Even before they're in the car
Wonder who or what they were meant for?

Cargo ship carrying burning lithium ion batteries reaches Alaska but is kept offshore amid frantic battle to extinguish the blaze as crew fears explosion
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12915069/Cargo-ship-carrying-burning-lithium-ion-batteries-reaches-Alaska-kept-offshore-amid-frantic-battle-extinguish-blaze-crew-fears-explosion.html
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zxcvbob

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2023, 07:54:41 PM »
No conversion factor, I'm considering 1kW-hr equivalent to 1 "gallon" in terms of what you're storing in your vehicle and the rate of transfer on different circuits.

120v outlets are rarely dedicated to one device, so most devices on a 20A circuit are designed to only pull 10 amps at most.  A car plugged into a 120v circuit will pull 10 amps, about 1200 watts, 1.2 kilowatts, or 1.2 "gallons" in terms of what you're storing in the vehicle.

220v outlets are generally 30 amp and can output 6000-7000 watts.  I suppose I undershot my estimate in that context.

I wonder if the current limit is programmable?  A 220V outlet can be 15A, 20A, 30A, or 50A, and I think there's a 60A receptacle but I'm not sure; those might need to be hardwired.  You wouldn't want the car charging at 30A on a 20A circuit and starting a house fire, or charging at 12 amps when 50 was available (but at least that one is not dangerous.)  Also they might need to be derated 20% like a resistive load.
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zahc

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2024, 12:32:02 PM »
In normal wiring, the receptacle format is supposed to prevent ever drawing too much from a circuit. And even if that fails, the breaker is supposed to protect the installed wiring.

In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.

My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.
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zxcvbob

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #120 on: January 01, 2024, 03:11:51 PM »
In normal wiring, the receptacle format is supposed to prevent ever drawing too much from a circuit. And even if that fails, the breaker is supposed to protect the installed wiring.

In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.

My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.

Since there are so many NEMA formats, and all of them are in use for 220V, I wondered how the car's charging circuit knows what plug it has.  (good point about the breaker)
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zahc

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #121 on: January 01, 2024, 04:28:02 PM »
Actual car charger formats have some kind of communication to negotiate the interface, sort of like USB does. It uses PWM over a single control pilot pin, but I don't know the protocol.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #122 on: January 01, 2024, 05:41:30 PM »
In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.

My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.

A couple of years ago my state passed a new law requiring any new commercial building with more than 'X' parking spaces to install the "infrastructure" (undefined in the law) for 10% of the parking spaces. The don't have to install the charging stations, but they have to install the "infrastructure." Nobody really knows if this means just an empty conduit, or if it means the conduit plus the wires.

But -- the law stipulates Level 2 chargers, so that means a minimum of a 40- or 50-amp breaker for each charging station. So four potential stations means four 40-amp breakers. This has often resulted in the service panel having to be upgraded from a 200-amp panel to a 400, or from 400 amps to 800. It also impacts the size of the transformer, and the service entrance cable from the transformer into the building.
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zahc

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #123 on: January 02, 2024, 10:25:58 AM »
A couple of years ago my state passed a new law requiring any new commercial building with more than 'X' parking spaces to install the "infrastructure" (undefined in the law) for 10% of the parking spaces. The don't have to install the charging stations, but they have to install the "infrastructure." Nobody really knows if this means just an empty conduit, or if it means the conduit plus the wires.

But -- the law stipulates Level 2 chargers, so that means a minimum of a 40- or 50-amp breaker for each charging station. So four potential stations means four 40-amp breakers. This has often resulted in the service panel having to be upgraded from a 200-amp panel to a 400, or from 400 amps to 800. It also impacts the size of the transformer, and the service entrance cable from the transformer into the building.

That's exactly why they stipulate it though... because it's much harder to put it in later. It reminds me of when a previous work building put in waterless urinals, but the plumbing code required running water lines, stubbing through the drywall, and capping them. So the next building tenant wouldn't have to do major wall surgery to put in normal urinals.

The problem with charging infrastructure is that stuff costs money and nobody has figured out who is supposed to pay. Hopefully businesses will start to view it as an amenity and do it voluntarily, but so far there's not much money to be made because nobody wants to burst the FSA's bubble by charging for electricity what it realistically costs, so no profit, so no charging.
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MechAg94

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Re: EVs not ready for prime time?
« Reply #124 on: January 02, 2024, 10:45:10 AM »
What would businesses say if we asked them to provide free gasoline pumps?  Or a free 5 gallons for customers or employees?  I somehow doubt that would be accepted. 

I haven't looked.  Are a lot of the charging stations free or do they require payment?
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