P-63 and B-17 midair Dallas

[sumpnz]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11420933/Planes-crash-mid-air-Wings-Dallas-event-sending-debris-flying.html

Horrible.   

[WLJ]

P-63 and B-17

video
https://twitter.com/GianKaizen/status/1591521366247112704
https://twitter.com/IFNY2775/status/1591529313958232064
Crap

[Tuco]

Horrific.  I've seen a B17 in flight and cannot fathom what may have led up to that collision. Nor can I fathom NOT seeing a B17 in flight. My heart goes out

[Andiron]

Well that' horrible.

[dogmush]

Interesting that the Daily Mail kept saying that the B17 "approached the flight path" of the P63.  It looked to me like the Kingcobra overtook the B17, while in a bank.

Anybody on here know the rules for close flight? In a boat, that would be the overtaking crafts fault, but I don't know about planes.

[Fly320s]

Horrific.  I've seen a B17 in flight and cannot fathom what may have led up to that collision. Nor can I fathom NOT seeing a B17 in flight. My heart goes out

The P-63 was above the -17 and in a descending left turn.  He couldn't have seen the bomber.

[Fly320s]

Interesting that the Daily Mail kept saying that the B17 "approached the flight path" of the P63.  It looked to me like the Kingcobra overtook the B17, while in a bank.

Anybody on here know the rules for close flight? In a boat, that would be the overtaking crafts fault, but I don't know about planes.

The rules are:  brief what you are going to do and do what you briefed.

It was an airshow, so maybe the pilots planned a mock attack on the airfield or something similar.  There were two other fighters ahead of the P-63 in the formation that made the turn ahead of the B-17.

There is also a very good photo of the crash online.  The photo captured the wreckage about .5 seconds after the collision.  I bet all the crew was dead by then.

[RocketMan]

Given the paint scheme of the B-17 I'm thinking it was the Texas Raiders, a CAF B-17G based in Texas.  To my eye it looked like the P-63 pilot flew outside of the line assigned to the fighter aircraft in that display.

ETA:  Yes, it was Texas Raiders.  That was one of the CAF's original aircraft from when they first formed in Harlingen, TX, and it was their first B-17.

[RocketMan]

Thinking back to when we on the crew of Sentimental Journey had a bit of a friendly rivalry going with the Texas Raiders folks as to who had the most properly and thoroughly restored B-17G.  We were sure that the SJ was the most authentically restored of the two Flying Fortresses.  On the rare occasions we attended the same airshows we would tour each other's aircraft and compare where everyone was in the restoration process.
Such an utter shame at the loss of life and destruction of two very rare aircraft.  A double tragedy.  Looking at the video that showed all four aircraft in the set, my bet is on the P-63 pilot flying outside his assigned lane.  The other fighters were well outside of the bomber lane.

[MechAg94]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKglS-1VaE
Mrgunsngear posted some thoughts based on talking to a retired fight pilot.  He doesn't think the P-63 pilot ever saw the B17.

He had a bunch of different angles of the collision posted to Instagram, but it looks like they were removed. 

[Boomhauer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKglS-1VaE
Mrgunsngear posted some thoughts based on talking to a retired fight pilot.  He doesn't think the P-63 pilot ever saw the B17.

He had a bunch of different angles of the collision posted to Instagram, but it looks like they were removed. 

Low wing aircraft suck for seeing below just like high wing suck for seeing above. And even without the wing in the way you often still have significant blind spots

 

[230RN]

I'm speechless.  What a tragedy for the planes and the personnel and their families.

[RocketMan]

The more I look at those videos, I am starting to wonder if that collision was deliberate on the part of the Kingcobra pilot.  The P-63 Kingcobra and its predecessor aircraft the P-39 Airacobra are both mid-engine planes.  The engine sits behind the pilot, driving the prop via a shaft that sits below the pilot, almost between their legs.
With this layout the pilot actually sits slightly forward of the wing, and that allows decent visibility immediately below and forward of the wing.
The various videos available on the web show the flight path taken by the Kingcobra pilot was an efficient pursuit curve.  The B-17 should have been easily visible to the P-63 pilot right up almost to impact.  And it really did not look to me like the Kingcobra pilot was trying to get back into his proper flight lane.
The point of impact on the B-17 was perfect from the standpoint of someone wanting to bring the aircraft down.  The fuselage broke off just forward of the belly turret location and just behind the rear radio room bulkhead.
The more I think about this event, the more puzzled I get.

[sumpnz]

Most likely it wasn’t deliberate.  That’s certainly a non-zero probability, but given that community I’d think the odds are exceptionally low of a deliberate mid-air collision.  I’d be more likely to put money on the P-63 pilot misjudging his position and was unable to maneuver away by the time he realized what was coming.  Even with the wings not blocking his view there’s still the cowling.  And given the bank he was in, and the location of the B-17 I can believe he couldn’t see the B-17 well enough to understand his mistake until he was pretty close.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

The more I look at those videos, I am starting to wonder if that collision was deliberate on the part of the Kingcobra pilot.  The P-63 Kingcobra and its predecessor aircraft the P-39 Airacobra are both mid-engine planes.  The engine sits behind the pilot, driving the prop via a shaft that sits below the pilot, almost between their legs.
With this layout the pilot actually sits slightly forward of the wing, and that allows decent visibility immediately below and forward of the wing.
The various videos available on the web show the flight path taken by the Kingcobra pilot was an efficient pursuit curve.  The B-17 should have been easily visible to the P-63 pilot right up almost to impact.  And it really did not look to me like the Kingcobra pilot was trying to get back into his proper flight lane.
The point of impact on the B-17 was perfect from the standpoint of someone wanting to bring the aircraft down.  The fuselage broke off just forward of the belly turret location and just behind the rear radio room bulkhead.
The more I think about this event, the more puzzled I get.

I must point out that when in a turn, as a pilot, you are concentrating on where you are going - that is, looking into the turn. That would put the B-17 just outside his field of view. The pilot of the B-17 wouldn't have seen the P-63 coming either, as the P-63 came in from about 7 or 8 o'clock.

Woody

[MechAg94]

I saw a video earlier talking about the P-63's visibility and mentioned the cockpit is further back and has relatively poor visibility forward/down.  That plus the pilots focus being elsewhere probably means he didn't see the B-17.  I can seem to find the same video now. 

I am sure there is going to be quite a bit of investigation.  I hate to assume bad intent without more tangible proof.

[230RN]

I can't help wondering how much alcohol might be found in any of the remains.

After reading that John Denver wasn't supposed to be flying when he pranged his kite, and that John Kennedy Jr. wasn't qualified to fly in any but VFR  conditions when he dumped his, and Bud Holland had been chastised multiple times about not following the rules, I start to wonder about either the chutzpah or celebratory beverage content or both of some pilots.

I don't know how true it is, but I heard one aviation expert claim "it's always pilot error."

This thing sickens me.

Terry, 230RN

[RocketMan]

Just read where the rehearsal flight was cancelled due to bad weather.  Going by previous experience, the rehearsal flight would have been on Friday, with the first show performance on Saturday when the collision occurred.  I wonder if that's how this show was done.