Idaho Sorority girls & 1 boyfriend, brutally killed

[Ben]

Firing squads are fine.  Death hurts. 

I mean, there's a bunch of methods that many modern people would consider "gruesome" that are actually very quick deaths. Probably better than chemicals. But nobody is comfortable with headless bodies and stuff.

[sumpnz]

I’ve personally killed hundreds of chickens and turkeys, and several sheep.  While bloody the animals are usually unconscious within 5 seconds and dead (meaning heart stopped and death throes complete) within 2-3 minutes. 

While I understand the desire to not have very gory and bloody deaths in executions of prisoners, this idea that their deaths should super peaceful and painless is wrong.  Excessive pain and suffering should be avoided, eg torture methods.  But disallowing “cruel and unusual” doesn’t mean totally pain free.

Firing squads, hanging, N2 asphyxiation, etc are all fairly understood and inexpensive.  N2 is probably the most forgiving of less than ideal, ummm, execution (pun intended).  But done right firing squads and hanging are minimally painful to the condemned. 

[Perd Hapley]

While I understand the desire to not have very gory and bloody deaths in executions of prisoners, this idea that their deaths should super peaceful and painless is wrong.  Excessive pain and suffering should be avoided, eg torture methods.  But disallowing “cruel and unusual” doesn’t mean totally pain free.

This.

Personally, the idea of being laid on a table and injected bothers me a whole lot more than standing in front of some rifles.

[Pb]

I mean, there's a bunch of methods that many modern people would consider "gruesome" that are actually very quick deaths.

Detcord!

[lee n. field]

Detcord!

Being burned at the stake, and as a mercy they put a collar stuffed with black powder around your neck.

[Hawkmoon]

Being burned at the stake, and as a mercy they put a collar stuffed with black power around your neck.

Freudian slip?

[lee n. field]

Freudian slip?

fixed

[BobR]

This.

Personally, the idea of being laid on a table and injected bothers me a whole lot more than standing in front of some rifles.

I don't mind the lethal injection but it is way to easy on the person being executed. In a good case they are rendered unconscious and then given a sedative and a large dose of potassium. They go to sleep and that's it. In my world of lethal injection they would be given a whopping dose (5mg/kg) of rocuronium (neuromuscular blocker/paralytic) and let them lay there paralyzed and contemplating their life as darkness descends from lack of oxygen getting to the brain. But some people would consider that cruel.

bob

[Pb]

I've kind of wondered about just cuffing killers and chaining them to a cement block and tossing them in the ocean.  No body to dispose of afterwards, no mess.

Is that cruel and unusual?  No more cruel than a short drop hanging I suppose.

I want to obey the bill of rights after all.

[dogmush]

I've kind of wondered about just cuffing killers and chaining them to a cement block and tossing them in the ocean.  No body to dispose of afterwards, no mess.

Is that cruel and unusual?  No more cruel than a short drop hanging I suppose.

I want to obey the bill of rights after all.

Would violate MARPOL 73/78.  You need to read the sticker on your boat again.

[Pb]

Shucks.  I thought I had something there.   

[cordex]

Shucks.  I thought I had something there.   

Don't give up on your dreams.  Burial at sea is a thing, you just have to haul them way out and seal them in a weighted bag first, right?

[230RN]

I object to capital punishent mainly on the grounds that it's apparent that the justice system is flawed and many innocents have been incarcerated or executed incorrectly.  I therefore, on theoretical grounds, would prefer that we not have capital punishment at all.

And let's remember, with our descriptions of cruel capital punishments herein that the ultimate purpose should be (in my opinion)  their removal from society, and not vengeance.  No matter how reprehensible and outrageous the original crime was.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord," no matter how interpreted. (Deuteronomy 32:35,Romans 12:17-19)*

It's not your job, and you should not pretend to be the agency of the Lord's vengeance.  (This has been an excuse that's been used too often for cruelty in the name of "justice.")

Just removal from society for life ... or until modern methods happen to demonstrate their innocence.

Also sprach Terry, 230RN

" Don't bring up the old an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth quotation.  This is another example of how the Bible seems to contradict itself, but that's another issue. Let the Lord do the eye-taking and tooth-pulling.

[RoadKingLarry]

I think as long as you're beyond the 12 mile limit your OK.

http://dynamic-ews.com/Tariffs/Standards%20Regulations/General%20Marine%20Discharge%20(21-Aug-2010).pdf

[RoadKingLarry]

I have no particular objections to capital punishment excpet that it's apparent that the justice system is flawed and many innocents have been incarcerated or executed incorrectly.  I therefore, on theoretical grounds, would prefer that we not have capital punishment at all.

I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

[WLJ]

I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

This

[230RN]

I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

"No doubt" notwithstanding, the goal should be removal from society, not to execute vengeance, which is the underlying root of your position if you examine it closely.

As an amusing aside, I would like to agree with you on "violating their oaths oif office" and "willfulluly convicting" for the sake of their career.  "Like to" agree, but not completely.  Removal from society in terms of incarceration will suffice in Terry's world.

Terry, 230RN

[sumpnz]

I agree with you but would make exceptions where there is no doubt of guilt. A few example of that would be the any of the mass murderers that were caught in the act, Ft Hood shooter, Parkland School shooter, Aurora theater shooter and similar offenders. As well as elected officials that that violate their oath of office and "justice system" officials that willfully convict innocent people.

Death penalty needs a higher standard than non-death penalty.  Been saying that for years.

With this guy that (allegedly) knifed the U of Idaho kids, my willingness to support the death penalty will depend heavily upon the nature of the evidence used to convict.  If genealogical DNA and cell phone tracking is all they really have i’d be hard pressed to even convict let alone support the death penalty.  If they have DNA from the blood of several victims, or the dog, in his car, the knife used with DNA from the victims from his apartment or parents home, etc my reticence will diminish quickly.

[RoadKingLarry]

The case of Richard Jewel comes to mind here.

[Pb]

It's not your job, and you should not pretend to be the agency of the Lord's vengeance.  (This has been an excuse that's been used too often for cruelty in the name of "justice.")

There is no biblical case for opposing the death penalty.  It is mandated for murder in the Noahide commandments.  Noahide laws were intended to bind all mankind, not just the Hebrew nation.

Genesis 9:6
 Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.

I respect, though do not agree with, your opposition based on mistakes in application.

[RocketMan]

I respect, though do not agree with, your opposition based on mistakes in application.

I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.

[cordex]

I bet you'd change your mind if you were the innocent person on the gallows, and the lever was about to be pulled.

Someone about to be murdered by a released or escaped killer might also second guess their previous opposition to the death penalty.  Neither extreme is sufficient in and of itself to decide the issue.

[230RN]

Someone about to be murdered by a released or escaped killer might also second guess their previous opposition to the death penalty.  Neither extreme is sufficient in and of itself to decide the issue.

Therefore we must default to the "let's not do anything that is irrevocable but possibly wrong" position.  I.e., "removal from society by incarceration" as opposed to "removal from society by irrevocable execution."

Terry, 230RN

[Perd Hapley]

There is no biblical case for opposing the death penalty.  It is mandated for murder in the Noahide commandments.  Noahide laws were intended to bind all mankind, not just the Hebrew nation.

Genesis 9:6
 Whoever sheds the blood of a human, by a human shall that person's blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind.

Exactly. Vengeance is for the Lord. Forgiveness is for the individual believer. The government should (mainly) stick to justice.* Unless you’re happy with Mayor Lightfoot’s job performance…


*There may be cases for pardons and commutations, from time to time.

" Don't bring up the old an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth quotation.  This is another example of how the Bible seems to contradict itself, but that's another issue. Let the Lord do the eye-taking and tooth-pulling.

The passage you're talking about is specifically about a legal code for the people of Israel; it's not about personal morality. Vengeance would mean that, if you put out my eye; I hunt you down, and take out yours, just to satisfy myself (or my family's honor, etc.) Justice would mean that an impartial judge has your eye removed, if that satisfies what the law has prescribed as the appropriate punishment. One is about my feelings; the other is about what’s best for society.

[230RN]

 ^ I presented the possibility of Biblical contradictions and hoped to set it aside as another issue.  Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the "vengeance" quote at all.

The case of Richard Jewel comes to mind here.

It always does, as well as several examples of aggressive prosecution for the sake of enhancing one's career.

Terry, 230RN

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell