Author Topic: Gun Control Watch  (Read 31530 times)

WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #350 on: November 06, 2023, 10:14:52 AM »
NJ Congressman pushing, again, for a Fed license which includes a written test and training to purchase a gun. License would have to be renewed ever 5 years.

Quote
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Today, Congressman Andy Kim (NJ-03) introduced the Responsible Gun Ownership Licensing Act to require individuals to obtain a firearm license from the Department of Justice (DOJ) in order to purchase or receive a firearm. The legislation is endorsed by VoteVets, an organization that elevates the voices of veterans – a group of Americans who know better than anyone that weapons must be treated with respect and require proper training.

Don't you just love the names they give these bills?

Congressman Kim Reintroduces Legislation to Combat Gun Violence Epidemic
https://kim.house.gov/media/press-releases/congressman-kim-reintroduces-legislation-to-combat-gun-violence-epidemic

Cory Booker, also NJ, has been pushing a similar bill that adds finger printing.
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WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #351 on: November 06, 2023, 11:25:27 AM »
Joy  ;/

Guns and Gadgets video

Federal Appeals Court: AR-15s ARE NOT Covered By 2nd Amendment!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2ch9-loPY


AP if you can stomach the language

Quote
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — A federal appeals court on Friday upheld Illinois’ prohibition on high-power semiautomatic weapons, refusing to put a hold on the law adopted in response to the mass killing of seven people at a 2022 parade in the Chicago suburb of Highland Park.

A three-judge panel of the 7th District U.S. Court of Appeals voted 2-1 on the issue. The majority recognized a difference between firearms for personal use and those the state law reserves for “trained professionals,” semiautomatic weapons, including the popular AR-15.

Federal appeals court upholds Illinois semiautomatic weapons ban
https://apnews.com/article/illinois-semiautomatic-gun-law-9158e2a4c7aed59e5a21cd0974a99cbf
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MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #352 on: November 06, 2023, 05:53:13 PM »
Joy  ;/

Guns and Gadgets video

Federal Appeals Court: AR-15s ARE NOT Covered By 2nd Amendment!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2ch9-loPY


AP if you can stomach the language
 
Federal appeals court upholds Illinois semiautomatic weapons ban
https://apnews.com/article/illinois-semiautomatic-gun-law-9158e2a4c7aed59e5a21cd0974a99cbf

It was a 3 judge panel so we will see where that goes. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #353 on: November 06, 2023, 11:16:57 PM »
It's not really a Second Amendment case but bizarrely the Supreme Court has decided to take the bump stock lawsuit...

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/garland-v-cargill/

It is "is a bump stock a machine gun?" and not "do we have a right to have bump stocks etc?"

They take this, and not all the AW ban cases???

MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #354 on: November 07, 2023, 08:58:30 AM »
To me, the bump stock case is about federal agency rules rewriting written federal law.  We will see if the SC addresses that.

On Assault Weapon bans, IMO, the Bruen ruling already addressed that.  However, I don't think those have been ruled on at the full appeals court level yet. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

JTHunter

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #355 on: November 07, 2023, 04:26:19 PM »
NJ Congressman pushing, again, for a Fed license which includes a written test and training to purchase a gun. License would have to be renewed ever 5 years.

That would be fine IF there was a matching requirement that LEGAL U.S. citizens to pass a competency test to vote.  >:D  :rofl:
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #356 on: November 09, 2023, 11:53:21 AM »
Federal Judge Stays Entire ATF Pistol Brace Rule
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/federal-judge-stays-entire-atf-pistol-brace-rule/

Quote
Late Wednesday, a Texas-based Federal District Court judge issued a nationwide stay preventing the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from enforcing its rule on pistols equipped with stabilizing devices (2021R-08F).
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #357 on: November 09, 2023, 06:09:37 PM »
Federal Judge Stays Entire ATF Pistol Brace Rule
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/federal-judge-stays-entire-atf-pistol-brace-rule/

Of course the feds will appeal it, but from everything I read, it has to be done in the 5th, where the stay was executed, and apparently the 5th is NOT a friend of fed.gov, so this might be good.
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Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #358 on: November 12, 2023, 09:22:55 AM »
Gun control related tangent, since like, way like, too like, many people like, think like real like life is like the movies, and like their boyfriends are like action heroes.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9ZZzmCfCq4Q?feature=share
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ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #359 on: November 12, 2023, 10:01:29 AM »
Federal Judge Stays Entire ATF Pistol Brace Rule
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/11/federal-judge-stays-entire-atf-pistol-brace-rule/

It is stuff like this from the ATF and other agencies that shows the current administration is doing anything they can to disarm We the Many Persons of this land. It is their sworn duty to protect our rights and freedom. Instead they are trying to defend their power and positions at the expense of our rights and freedom. They should not be trying to prevent a revolution, insurrection, nor a civil war. They should be governing in a manner that MAKES  REVOLUTION, INSURRECTION, OR A CIVIL WAR UNNECESSARY. Period.

Woody
   "Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future."   B.E.Wood

Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #360 on: November 13, 2023, 10:49:00 AM »
I'm sorry if my question is off-topic, I just don't really know the rules about weapons in your country, especially since they are different in different states.
I just don’t really understand why there is such indignation over possible bans on "assault weapons"?

In what cases might an ordinary civilian need to use assault weapons? Defense, hunting? What other uses are just shooting at the range? Why is a semi-automatic (any, smooth-bore or rifled-bore) insufficient in these applications? Sorry for my little English and ignorance of laws...

cordex

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #361 on: November 13, 2023, 11:03:19 AM »
I'm sorry if my question is off-topic, I just don't really know the rules about weapons in your country, especially since they are different in different states.
I just don’t really understand why there is such indignation over possible bans on "assault weapons"?

In what cases might an ordinary civilian need to use assault weapons? Defense, hunting? What other uses are just shooting at the range? Why is a semi-automatic (any, smooth-bore or rifled-bore) insufficient in these applications? Sorry for my little English and ignorance of laws...
To be clear, in the context of US gun control, "assault weapons" does refer to semi-automatic weapons.  "Assault weapon" in our context simply means modern semi-automatic weapons.  Legal fully automatic weapons are very tightly restricted in the US.

That said, while the risk to the US is currently minimal, it isn't hard to find current examples of nations with relatively stringent gun control who have had recent interactions with particularly unfriendly neighbors.  In those cases it strikes me that having a greater number of modern and effective personal weapons and ammunition dispersed amongst the populace of the victim nation might well have helped against aggressors.

Even if there were no practical purpose to civilians personally owning effective weapons (and I disagree with that assessment), I see a net benefit of living in a nation with the freedom to do so - among a variety of other freedoms.

Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #362 on: November 13, 2023, 11:14:37 AM »
That said, while the risk to the US is currently minimal, it isn't hard to find current examples of nations with relatively stringent gun control who have had recent interactions with particularly unfriendly neighbors.  In those cases it strikes me that having a greater number of modern and effective personal weapons and ammunition dispersed amongst the populace of the victim nation might well have helped against aggressors.

Even if there were no practical purpose to civilians personally owning effective weapons (and I disagree with that assessment), I see a net benefit of living in a nation with the freedom to do so - among a variety of other freedoms.

Freedom is certainly good, but I am primarily interested in practical necessity.
Well, there are ​unfriendly neighbors from whom you need to defend yourself, but is it really necessary to directly bombard such neighbors with machine-gun fire? So you can go as far as the absolute - you can throw grenades at them (just in case), use NLAW, mine the lawn?

Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #363 on: November 13, 2023, 11:20:07 AM »
Freedom is certainly good, but I am primarily interested in practical necessity.
Well, there are ​unfriendly neighbors from whom you need to defend yourself, but is it really necessary to directly bombard such neighbors with machine-gun fire? So you can go as far as the absolute - you can throw grenades at them (just in case), use NLAW, mine the lawn?

To be clear, about 98% of the rifles in the United States referred to as "assault weapons" are simply semi-auto rifles - one trigger pull, one bullet. While "machine guns" are legal in many states, there is around a year of paperwork to do with the government (a non-US person might think of it as a license), plus most of them run $10,000 plus.

As for why we might need something like AR-15s, besides many instances in the US of home invasion gangs, we have only to look at what happened in Israel on 07October.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #364 on: November 13, 2023, 11:26:47 AM »
Freedom is certainly good, but I am primarily interested in practical necessity.
Well, there are ​unfriendly neighbors from whom you need to defend yourself, but is it really necessary to directly bombard such neighbors with machine-gun fire? So you can go as far as the absolute - you can throw grenades at them (just in case), use NLAW, mine the lawn?

Where did you get "machine-gun"?  Real assault rifles are machine guns chambered in an intermediate cartridge, but those for the most part do not exist here; the very few that are in private hands are highly regulated.  What most people called assault rifles are really just semiautomatic rifles with black plastic stocks and could be chambered in just about any cartridge.  People are fixated on the black plastic furniture and totally ignore the actual capabilities (or lack thereof) of the weapon.  I have a Ruger Mini-14 GB with a really pretty walnut stock (most have ugly birch stocks or plastic stocks.)  It looks absolutely nothing like an AR-15, but is functionally the same thing.

Respectfully, you are listening to either dishonest or ignorant people (perhaps both) who are trying to confuse you.
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Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #365 on: November 13, 2023, 11:31:32 AM »
Respectfully, you are listening to either dishonest or ignorant people (perhaps both) who are trying to confuse you.

In fairness to our new member, he hasn't said where he's from, but lets remember that the US news that makes it to other countries is often predominated by our mainstream media, and those countries' interpretation of that news. They are more likely to see David Hogg quotes as "news" than factual statements on many subjects. I often have to tear my hair out when some of my relatives in Germany Telegram me some ridiculous news story and ask me what the heck is going on in the US.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

zxcvbob

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #366 on: November 13, 2023, 11:40:20 AM »
In fairness to our new member, he hasn't said where he's from, but lets remember that the US news that makes it to other countries is often predominated by our mainstream media, and those countries' interpretation of that news. They are more likely to see David Hogg quotes as "news" than factual statements on many subjects. I often have to tear my hair out when some of my relatives in Germany Telegram me some ridiculous news story and ask me what the heck is going on in the US.

I thought I was being fair.  :laugh:  I was not critical of "Opportunity" for being misinformed, I was critical of the media spreading misinformation.
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Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #367 on: November 13, 2023, 01:07:55 PM »
I thought I was being fair.  :laugh:  I was not critical of "Opportunity" for being misinformed, I was critical of the media spreading misinformation.

I wasn't calling you out, just pointing out that our news is often very distorted and "agendized" by the time it makes it to other countries and through translation.  =)
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #368 on: November 13, 2023, 01:49:38 PM »
Lots of people hunt with "assault weapons" in the US.  For a while, lots of people picked up cheap SKS and AK rifles that were imported in the US and they worked fine for hunting medium sized game (they aren't so cheap anymore).  Semi-auto rifles are not a whole lot more expensive than many bolt action rifle/scope combos.  If I had to go hunting this weekend, I would likely use my Ruger SFAR in 308 failing some specific requirement.  That said, mostly I just enjoy target shooting. 

For home defense, AR's and AK's make very effective weapons and don't over-penetrate any worse than pistols.  And they are capable of dealing with any number of potential home invaders. 

Beyond that, IMO, the people should have the right to own anything the govt does.  IMO, a random person is likely more trustworthy than the govt or politicians in general. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 05:45:24 PM by MechAg94 »
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #369 on: November 13, 2023, 02:18:24 PM »
For the benefit of our new member...

AR-15 versus M16
The AR-15 is a civilian rifle. It functions in semi-auto fire mode (one shot per pull of the trigger), the same as many other semi-auto rifles on the market. While cosmetically similar to the military M16, it is mechanically very different.

The M16 is a military rifle which has full-auto fire capability. It is available to military and law enforcement only. Yes, there are a few M16 rifles which entered civilian circulation prior to the Gun Control Act of 1986, but they are tightly controlled, require registration, incur a special tax, and are very expensive.

Assault Rifle
Assault Rifle is a non-term, it describes nothing other than to convey a feeling or perception. It is a subjective reference assigned solely due to appearance. There are no objectively defining criteria. It's used by those ignorant of firearms and firearm operation to describe anything with a military or tactical appearance. As an example, the AR-15 and Ruger Mini-14 are functionally identical, yet one is labeled an "assault weapon" and the other isn't. Why? Because of appearance. You may also see the term SBR (Scary Black Rifle) as a tongue-in-cheek reference to those individuals who use "Assault Weapon" to describe any rifle other than bolt- or lever-action, especially if it's black and has rails or accessory attachment points.

Brad
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cordex

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #370 on: November 13, 2023, 02:36:10 PM »
Freedom is certainly good, but I am primarily interested in practical necessity.
Personally, I don't see practical necessity as particularly meaningful as far as establishing restrictions in a free society.

What is the practical necessity of having a vehicle that can drive faster than the speed limit?  What is the practical necessity of having a book which describes things that the government doesn't like?  What is the practical necessity of allowing public musical concerts?  I'd ask that you justify the practical necessity of your own clothing selection.  Couldn't you survive with a couple of sets of coveralls?

Well, there are ​unfriendly neighbors from whom you need to defend yourself, but is it really necessary to directly bombard such neighbors with machine-gun fire? So you can go as far as the absolute - you can throw grenades at them (just in case), use NLAW, mine the lawn?
As has been said over and over (including in the post you were replying to) legal machine guns, are very tightly restricted, very expensive, and quite rare.  Likewise (but even more-so) with destructive devices like grenades, NLAWs, and land mines.

If you're asking what I think should be allowed, that's a different conversation. 

The weapons that are called by US politicians "assault weapons" are nothing more than modern semi-automatic rifles and handguns.  So, as it pertains to your intitial post in this thread, people are indignant over the government wanting to ban modern semi-automatic weapons because - as you yourself noted - those semi-automatic weapons are useful tools for a wide variety of activities from self-defense to hunting to recreation.

Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #371 on: November 13, 2023, 03:23:45 PM »
I'm sorry if my question is off-topic, I just don't really know the rules about weapons in your country, especially since they are different in different states.
I just don’t really understand why there is such indignation over possible bans on "assault weapons"?


No, that is a great question.

You would not know it by listening to court decisions, but the primary purpose of the Second Amendment not to use to shoot criminals, or to hunt animals.  It is to prevent the Federal Government from becoming tyrannical.

In the American Colonies, and in the early USA, we had a militia system for most of our military force... that is, all free able bodied men were required by law to own a gun, ammunition, and a bayonet.  If you didn't own one, you would be fined, and the money would be used to buy guns for the poor so they could do their militia duty.  The militia would meet a few times a year for drilling.  This was our primary force for defense against the Indians (and the French).  Militia aren't that great, obviously, when compared to a professional, but we lots and lots of them, and they could be fielded anywhere rapidly.  When the Second Amendment refers to the militia is talking about basically everybody, not a small group of people, not professionals.

When the colonies and England started having disputes, the British sent their military to confiscate the guns, cannons, shot and powder of the militia (that is, of ordinary people).  This infuriated the Americans so much, we shot back... and thus the American Revolution started.  It didn't start with politicians signing a document, or making some state.  Regular people shot soldiers trying to take their guns away.  That's it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

In the American Revolution, militias were inferior to professional troops, but we would not have won without them... they won several major battles (including the Battle of King's Mountain), and they were available in huge numbers, when the professional soliders were not.

After we won the Revolution, patriots remembered how the professional British Military had been used to repress the people, and they wanted to be sure that would never happen with the military forces of the USA... hence the Second Amendment was written, to ensure that the government would never disarm the people.... when the people are well armed with guns they know how to, and are willing to use, it is difficult to oppress them.

Everything in the Constition establishes checks and balances, to make sure no one group has too much power.  The Senate versus the House of Representatives... the President versus the legislature... the Supreme Court can check both of these.  Well, the Second Amendment provides a check on the power of the USA's professional military:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Here is probably the most re-printed explanation of this amendment, published during the ratification period:

As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
Tench Coxe

What weapons are protected?  Military ones, as literally all courts and commenators who opined on the issue noted, until the 20th century:

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American… The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
Tench Coxe, again

The militia system is no longer organized like it used to (a modern equivalent would be similar to the Swiss Militia System)... it fell apart about the time of the civil war...

The "unorganized militia" still exists in US law- all abled bodied men with weapons... and this makes it much more difficult for a maligant government to oppress people, knowing that they have the ability to shoot back.

Semi-automatic rifles are the only weapons readily available in the USA that has potential military use... that is one reason the democrats want to ban, them, and why we have a right to own them.

In reality, Americans have a right to own any gun used by our military, and our current ban on real assault rifles (machine guns) is blatantly unconstitutional, but the courts won't acknowledge this.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 09:43:18 AM by Pb »

Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #372 on: November 13, 2023, 04:37:18 PM »
In fairness to our new member, he hasn't said where he's from, but lets remember that the US news that makes it to other countries is often predominated by our mainstream media, and those countries' interpretation of that news.

If anything, I'm from Russia. I'm a hunter and guns owner, and I'm certainly interested in what the rules are in US, where gun laws have existed for hundreds of years.
I thank those who responded - approximate meaning is clear…

Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #373 on: November 13, 2023, 05:35:34 PM »
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WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #374 on: November 13, 2023, 05:55:47 PM »
Welcome to the forum.
Never be shy about asking questions.
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