Author Topic: Gun Control Watch  (Read 31411 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #375 on: November 13, 2023, 06:00:39 PM »
Prior to 1934 (passage of the National Firearms Act), there were very few gun laws in the US.  Prior to that, you could mail order a machine gun to your house along with just about any other weapon.  During the 1920's and 1930's (post WWI), there was a big push in Europe (and later in the US) to restrict or ban ownership of firearms.  Most of Europe enacted registration and other restrictions.  The big result of that in the US was the National Firearms Act of 1934.  That required registration of machine guns which included a tax stamp that was priced very high for the time. 

There have been other laws passed since then, but that was once of the first.  Prior to 1934, there were some restrictions here and there, but mostly designed to prevent the poor and minorities from owning guns.  The first gun control ever passed in the US was to prevent black slaves from owning guns.

I am sure someone will correct me and add on to this.   =)

And I agree.  It is a good question and something we should revisit every now and then.
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WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #376 on: November 13, 2023, 06:04:26 PM »
Okay folks, how about this?

Quote
Eric Lipton
@EricLiptonNYT
NYT: Army Ammunition Plant Is Tied to Mass Shootings Across the U.S.

The site was built for the military, but commercial sales are booming with little public accountability.
https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/1723683381718696204

The main article. I think it's suppose to behind a paywall, maybe, but it came right up for me

Army Ammunition Plant Is Tied to Mass Shootings Across the U.S.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/us/army-ammunition-factory-shootings.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

Quote
The initials stand for the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Built during World War II, the federal site, in Independence, Mo., has made nearly all the rifle cartridges used by the U.S. military since it pulled out of Vietnam.

In recent years, the factory has also pumped billions of rounds of military-grade ammunition into the commercial market, an investigation by The New York Times found, leaving the “LC” signature scattered across crime scenes, including the sites of some of the nation’s most heinous mass shootings.

The plant, operated by a private contractor with Army oversight, is now one of the country’s biggest manufacturers of commercial rounds for the popular AR-15, and it remains so even as the United States supplies ammunition to Ukraine.

The rest of the article basically go on about how the US govt is provides ammo for murder using mass murders to sell more ammo.
It's pretty long winded, which is typical NYT, and that's probably an understatement.

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WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #377 on: November 13, 2023, 06:19:49 PM »
Bearing Arms has a break down of the above NYT article if you don't want to lose brain cells reading it.

https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2023/11/13/next-gun-control-fight-likely-to-target-ammo-n77217
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 07:03:20 PM by WLJ »
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Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #378 on: November 14, 2023, 09:45:14 AM »
If anything, I'm from Russia. I'm a hunter and guns owner, and I'm certainly interested in what the rules are in US, where gun laws have existed for hundreds of years.

Can you tell us about how to own guns in Russia?

Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #379 on: November 15, 2023, 02:37:49 AM »
Can you tell us about how to own guns in Russia?

In Russia everything is quite simple, of course - there are many more restrictions than in US.
Firstly, guns (sorry - am I writing correctly, I mean pistols?) are completely prohibited. You can buy any gun, but you can only store and use it at a shooting range, you cannot store it at home or in your car.
Secondly, there is a fairly clear distinction between shotguns and rifles. I mean weapons with rifled barrels (is it better to say a carbine or a rifle?). Moreover, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a single-shot weapon or a semi-automatic weapon; what’s more important is whether it’s a smooth-bore weapon or a rifled one.
A person who buys a weapon for the first time can only buy a smooth-bore weapon first. There can be a maximum of 5 such weapons. At the same time, the owner can buy a rifled weapon only after 5 years of experience in owning a smooth-bore weapon.
After 5 years, the owner can buy any rifled weapon (no more than 5 units), except fully automatic ones. Thus, you can own a maximum of 5 units of smoothbore weapons (shotguns and stuff) + 5 units of rifled weapons (except fully automatic and guns). These rules are uniform throughout the entire territory (regardless of state or region).

P.S. I forgot - a couple of years ago they also introduced a restriction that the first smooth-bore weapon cannot be semi-automatic - you also need 2 years of experience.

P.P.S. If you are interested, I can tell you later what the hunting rules are in Russia.

dogmush

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #380 on: November 15, 2023, 06:44:16 AM »
Opportunity,

How many pistols do you think there still are in Russia though?  When I was in Moscow in 1993 it was trivially easy for a 14 year old American to get a pistol,  and several of the clubs I went to had places to check weapons at the door. No one was even hiding it.

Pistols were "illegal " than as well, but pretty common.  Has that changed in the intervening decades?

Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #381 on: November 15, 2023, 09:41:08 AM »
How many pistols do you think there still are in Russia though?  When I was in Moscow in 1993 it was trivially easy for a 14 year old American to get a pistol,  and several of the clubs I went to had places to check weapons at the door. No one was even hiding it.

Pistols were "illegal " than as well, but pretty common.  Has that changed in the intervening decades?
In the 90s, the criminal situation in Russia certainly flourished - yes, there were a lot of illegal weapons. Now a normal order has been established in this regard.
Of course, some weapons still remain illegal, but I don’t think they are comparable to the legal weapons available. Legal weapons in Russia (I don’t remember exactly, but I think 6-7 million per 140 million population) are quite small compared to US, for example.
As for pistols specifically - so-called weapons of limited destruction are allowed - maybe you have met such pistols in clubs? I don't know what exactly to call it, but these are pistols that shoot rubber bullets - they are allowed to be freely carried and stored (but you also need to have a license for them).
Personally, my opinion regarding them is sharply negative because... this is an “impersonal” weapon that does not have normal destructive power, but which can cripple (and even kill) while leaving no traces, because there are no rifling in the barrel.

dogmush

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #382 on: November 15, 2023, 09:59:50 AM »
Nah the one's I ran into were Soviet era Tokarevs and Makarovs mostly.  It was a PM that my Host told me how to obtain before I went galivanting around Moscow.  Not a rubber bullet in sight.

That said, I also absolutely didn't need it, I had no issues at all while I was there.  And as you say, the 90's were a different time in Russia.  All those pistols didn't dissolve into thin air however.  it makes you wonder how many guns are tucked away in boxes in attics and under beds.


As a side note: it's a real shame our governments seem so intent on being rivals and enemies, because I really enjoyed my time in Russia, and got along great with every Russian I met.  Our cultures are really more similar than they are different.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #383 on: November 15, 2023, 10:52:15 AM »
Firstly, guns (sorry - am I writing correctly, I mean pistols?) are completely prohibited. You can buy any gun, but you can only store and use it at a shooting range, you cannot store it at home or in your car.
Secondly, there is a fairly clear distinction between shotguns and rifles. I mean weapons with rifled barrels (is it better to say a carbine or a rifle?).

A quick guide to assist you with how firearms terms are commonly used in the U.S. You're probably already familiar with a lot of the terminology below, so most of this may be redundant.

Firearm covers all categories of weapons.

Long gun is used as a general reference for all non-handgun weaponry, both rifles and shotguns.

Handgun is broken into single shot, revolver, and semi-auto. Single shot and revolver are self-evident. Semi-auto gets sticky at times due to a change in how term pistol has been used over the decades. You will see the terms pistol and semi-auto used interchangeably even though the former technically denotes a category of firearm and the latter an action type. The historic term of "pistol" is  synonymous with "handgun", meaning any weapon designed for one-hand use. In modern parlance it has evolved to denote a semi-auto handgun. Unfortunately, there is a lot of debate over the term's proper use so don't be surprise if it comes up and the debate becomes spirited. I will spare you the agony and simply leave it in broad terms. I will also intentionally not delve into the world of single action and double action, as that is an entire discussion of its own.

Rifles are usually referred to by their action type - lever, bolt, semi-automatic, etc. "Carbine" is typically used to denote a shorter version of an existing rifle. Example, a Winchester Model 1892 Carbine is a shorter-barreled version of the standard Winchester Model 1892 rifle. As with pistol, the term often gets used as a general reference to any compact long gun rather than in it's more correct context.

Shotgun generally refers to any smoothbore long gun designed for shotshells, though some handguns will also accept shotgun shells. Shotguns generally come in three categories - single shot (or "breakover"), pump, and semi-auto.

Keep in mind these are all general-use scenarios. The English language's diversity is great for use as a tool to describe things, but the diversity also means it is easily morphed, warped, and bastardized in common use.  How firearms terms are used in casual conversation varies almost endlessly, mostly based on historic use in a given region. That said, the above should work fine for you in the vast majority of situations.

Brad
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 12:17:51 PM by Brad Johnson »
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #384 on: November 15, 2023, 11:16:15 AM »
Here is a good general reference to gun laws and their history in the US as well as some general gun info.

https://guncite.com/
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Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #385 on: November 15, 2023, 11:29:45 AM »
Let me see if I understand this, Opportunity- you cannot keep one of your own rifles or shotguns at home?


MechAg94

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #386 on: November 15, 2023, 12:27:51 PM »
In the 90s, the criminal situation in Russia certainly flourished - yes, there were a lot of illegal weapons. Now a normal order has been established in this regard.
Of course, some weapons still remain illegal, but I don’t think they are comparable to the legal weapons available. Legal weapons in Russia (I don’t remember exactly, but I think 6-7 million per 140 million population) are quite small compared to US, for example.
As for pistols specifically - so-called weapons of limited destruction are allowed - maybe you have met such pistols in clubs? I don't know what exactly to call it, but these are pistols that shoot rubber bullets - they are allowed to be freely carried and stored (but you also need to have a license for them).
Personally, my opinion regarding them is sharply negative because... this is an “impersonal” weapon that does not have normal destructive power, but which can cripple (and even kill) while leaving no traces, because there are no rifling in the barrel.

I would agree that non-lethal weapons are often pretty dangerous.  Some people seem to have a mistaken idea that that everything is okay if no one dies.  They don't seem to care if someone is crippled or maimed. 

Also, IMO the value of rifling marks on bullets for tracing is pretty limited.  There are a great many ways for a criminal to avoid that issue and "matching" rifling to a specific gun is very difficult if not impossible. 
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Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #387 on: November 17, 2023, 07:51:50 AM »
A quick guide to assist you with how firearms terms are commonly used in the U.S. You're probably already familiar with a lot of the terminology below, so most of this may be redundant.

Thank you

Here is a good general reference to gun laws and their history in the US as well as some general gun info.

interesting resource, although very complex

Also, IMO the value of rifling marks on bullets for tracing is pretty limited.  There are a great many ways for a criminal to avoid that issue and "matching" rifling to a specific gun is very difficult if not impossible. 

All rifled firearms (rifles and carbines) undergo test shooting upon sale and all data is stored in a special file cabinet at the police. Based on these marks (rifled barrel) on the bullet and cartridge case, you can always determine the owner. This is why I always vote for owning handgun with a rifled barrel (you can always determine who fired, i.e. the shooter will understand responsibility).

Let me see if I understand this, Opportunity- you cannot keep one of your own rifles or shotguns at home?

No, on the contrary - you can keep up to 5 shotguns + up to 5 carbines at home.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #388 on: November 17, 2023, 09:41:18 AM »
All rifled firearms (rifles and carbines) undergo test shooting upon sale and all data is stored in a special file cabinet at the police. Based on these marks (rifled barrel) on the bullet and cartridge case, you can always determine the owner. This is why I always vote for owning handgun with a rifled barrel (you can always determine who fired, i.e. the shooter will understand responsibility).

Unfortunately, history has proven cartridge databases and projectile rifling analysis to be a poor resource. Not only do mechanical interfaces (rifling, chambers, breech faces, and firing pins, etc) wear with use, they can be easily and quickly disfigured with any sharp metal object. Five minutes with metal polish and a steel brush will permanently alter factory rifling enough to completely negate physical comparisons. While forensic bullet analysis remains a common trope in media, entertainment, and general perceptions, along with being trumpeted by law enforcement, in practical application it gives, at best, inconsistent and unreliable results.

Brad
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 11:54:19 AM by Brad Johnson »
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Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #389 on: November 17, 2023, 11:52:53 AM »
Another question for you Opportunity... somewhere I read that in Russia high capacity firearm magazines and silencers/suppressors are technically illegal, but there was no penalty for possession, so they they are available anyway.

I thought that sounded really weird.

True or false?

Anyway, if you feel like answering, what sorts of firearms do you own?  What shooting sports do you do?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #390 on: November 19, 2023, 12:33:16 AM »

https://bearingarms.com/ranjit-singh/2023/11/18/a-well-outfitted-militia-german-translation-of-the-second-amendment-offers-insight-n77406

Quote
This article seeks to uncover the original public meaning of the Second Amendment by scrutinizing unusual and previously unexamined sources: German–American translations of the Bill of Rights during the Founding Era.

Turns out that people translating the amendment understood it to mean exactly what us crazy gun nuts think it means today.
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Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #391 on: November 19, 2023, 09:19:42 AM »
We know a family of Ukrainian refugees.  The husband of the family has an interest in firearms, and has some experience target shooting back home (makarov, shotgun, AK, and he described an integrally suppressed makarov- maybe the PB pistol?).  Anyway, he was interested in seeing some of my guns, which I was happy to do... he particularly enjoyed seeing the mak again.

Anyway, the most fun part of the exchange was his incredulity when I told him there was no gun licensing, permits, registration, and next to no regulation of private transfers... and in most of the USA you could carry a pistol with no permit.   :lol:

I explained the Second Amendment to him, and I hope I did it justice.  We are planning on having him go shooting with my family this Christmas.... and he wants a Glock and a Nagant revolver.  We haven't been able to figure out if his legal status will let him buy guns though.

Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #392 on: November 19, 2023, 09:33:47 AM »
https://bearingarms.com/ranjit-singh/2023/11/18/a-well-outfitted-militia-german-translation-of-the-second-amendment-offers-insight-n77406

Turns out that people translating the amendment understood it to mean exactly what us crazy gun nuts think it means today.

I guess that's confirmation that if you want to understand what someone meant in the 18th Century, you should refer to an 18th Century dictionary, regardless of language.

I think in the modern German, the 2nd creates the same controversy on meaning as it does in English. Interestingly, I threw it into Google translate, which often mangles German translations. Using the entire phrase, "well-regulated" translates as "well-organized", while translating only "well regulated" translates to "well-regulated".

If you asked me, with no reference, to translate only "well-regulated" into German, I would translate it as "well-regulated", as that's the modern conversion. Again, that's why you need to understand usage at the time. Interestingly, Google translated "shall not be infringed" into "must not be violated".
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Tuco

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #393 on: November 19, 2023, 11:32:47 AM »
Thank you

I'm new to this thread and see we have a new member.
Hello, Opportunity!   I appreciate your questions, the information you've shared, and am happy you are here. Please make yourself at home and enjoy the forum.
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Opportunity

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #394 on: November 20, 2023, 03:17:37 AM »
Another question for you Opportunity... somewhere I read that in Russia high capacity firearm magazines and silencers/suppressors are technically illegal, but there was no penalty for possession, so they they are available anyway.

Anyway, if you feel like answering, what sorts of firearms do you own?  What shooting sports do you do?

The maximum magazine capacity on any civilian firearms is no more than 10 cartriges. The only exceptions are sports shooting (for example, IPCS), where, depending on the class, the capacity of the cartridge magazine may not be limited. As for silencers, silencers are prohibited, but there are many types of so-called "sound moderators" on sale (allowed), although it seems to me that any sound moderator is essentially a silencer)) so there is a very fine line here. I used a silencer only when hunting hares.
I do very little sports shooting, sometimes I go to skeet shooting, but very rarely, 1500 cartridges have been lying idle for a year))
Mainly hunting. As for my firearms, I’d better tell you in a separate post (if the respected society allows).

Pb

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #395 on: November 20, 2023, 09:45:23 AM »
As for my firearms, I’d better tell you in a separate post (if the respected society allows).

Thank you.

Yes, of course we allow!

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WLJ

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #397 on: November 21, 2023, 07:19:43 PM »
And now Oregon

Quote
Measure 114, which passed by a slim margin, would require anyone who wants to purchase a firearm to take a safety course and pass a test to receive a permit to make the purchase. It also requires a completed background check for purchases and bans magazines holding over 10 rounds of ammunition.

Raschio said all of those provisions are unconstitutional.

Oregon judge rules that voter-approved Measure 114 gun safety law violates the state constitution
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/11/21/oregon-supreme-court-gun-law-firearms-measure-114-harney-county/
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Ben

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #398 on: November 21, 2023, 08:12:26 PM »
And now Oregon

Oregon judge rules that voter-approved Measure 114 gun safety law violates the state constitution
https://www.opb.org/article/2023/11/21/oregon-supreme-court-gun-law-firearms-measure-114-harney-county/

Harney County is super duper conservative. The state appears to be filing an appeal. I don't know how those work jurisdiction-wise. If it ends up in Multnomah County, the appeal will certainly be obliged. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Gun Control Watch
« Reply #399 on: November 21, 2023, 10:38:50 PM »

I explained the Second Amendment to him, and I hope I did it justice.  We are planning on having him go shooting with my family this Christmas.... and he wants a Glock and a Nagant revolver.  We haven't been able to figure out if his legal status will let him buy guns though.

What is his status? If he has a green card, he can buy guns. If he doesn't have a green card, technically he's not supposed to touch a firearm.
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