Author Topic: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule  (Read 20550 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #125 on: May 27, 2023, 11:42:50 AM »
Not a knock on your post, just an observation. I still find it extraordinary that we can have an ATF Director (and thus any gov official in charge of something) who can almost with pride say that they have no expertise in the area they control.

I don't find it extraordinary. Seems to be the norm for government nowadays.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #126 on: May 27, 2023, 04:42:23 PM »
I suspect that any lawyer or judge will tell you that's not how it works.  The Director said plenty of times that he wasn't an expert on firearms, or the laws concerning them.  Any reasonable court would find that he wasn't committing perjury, he was just mistaken.  The rule will continue to mean what it pretty plainly stated until a court or legislation changes it.  The ATF Director does not have the ability to change CFR's on a whim, just by saying they mean something different.
A Director of a Federal agency who has no knowledge or expertise on the subject he's supposed to be directing and whose sworn testimony carries zero weight and who isn't responsible for testifying under oath to things that aren't true should have no title, no job, and (most importantly) no salary.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,669
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #127 on: May 27, 2023, 08:28:08 PM »
Not a knock on your post, just an observation. I still find it extraordinary that we can have an ATF Director (and thus any gov official in charge of something) who can almost with pride say that they have no expertise in the area they control.

I agree with you.  The business school fops will tell you at that level it's all managing people,  and you don't need to know the details. That's what middle management is for.

As a middle manager I can tell you if a leader does that to me, it means I can do whatever I want, because they don't know any better.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 07:21:48 AM by dogmush »

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,173
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #128 on: May 27, 2023, 11:01:36 PM »
at the local pawn shop, a bunch of guys got call in to collect their braces, the pawn shop had a lot of people getting loans on their guns and they took the brace off themselves and made the owners come in and get them .

At work one of the clients is a gun guy, he walking around telling people they're felons ( if the subject comes up ) most are just saying
"huh, what? , no I bought it at a gun shop and did the background thing, it's legal, they can't arrest everyone"

I don't own one myself but I am betting that eventually ATF shoots themselves in the foot and small barrels will be treated no different than a full size
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,197
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #129 on: May 28, 2023, 03:55:54 AM »
Washington Gun Law weighed in, suggesting that it does indeed encompass everyone associated with FPC and Maxim, but no one else. There is still some talk that this only affects people within the geographic boundaries of the 5th Circuit. I'm a bit perplexed how a Federal court could geofence a Federal ruling. If it's federal, then in my layman's perspective, it should apply across the country.

https://youtu.be/q1563ZTnTqE

There have been many other cases in which different federal circuits have ruled in opposite ways on questions of federal law. That's what's known as a "circuit split," and those are the types of cases the Supreme Court is most likely to take, because they want the law to be the same everywhere. A ruling from the fifth circuit court of appeals isn't binding on judges in any other circuit. It can be cited as persuasive authority, but it isn't binding.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/persuasive_authority
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,739
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2023, 10:06:54 AM »
Apropos of nothing but my curmudgeonliness (if that's a word), I am getting really irritated with all the guntuber "breaking news!!!!" videos on the brace ban coming out in recent weeks that either actually tell you nothing, or have a headline about "The Brace Ban is Dead!!!", but then talk about some minor "win" that actually amounts to nothing.

Some of these guys are coming out with new videos on it daily, or in some cases multiple times per day, with "Breaking News!!!"
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2023, 10:28:13 AM »
Apropos of nothing but my curmudgeonliness (if that's a word), I am getting really irritated with all the guntuber "breaking news!!!!" videos on the brace ban coming out in recent weeks that either actually tell you nothing, or have a headline about "The Brace Ban is Dead!!!", but then talk about some minor "win" that actually amounts to nothing.

Some of these guys are coming out with new videos on it daily, or in some cases multiple times per day, with "Breaking News!!!"

I've noticed a huge increase in click bait YT videos fitting that description recently on pretty much every subject. Everything from guns, history, to science

The below video is mainly focused on this issue when it comes to science videos but it's more than likely the same when it comes to many gun & gun law videos.

YouTube’s Science Scam Crisis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McM3CfDjGs0

« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 11:07:29 AM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,669
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2023, 10:38:14 AM »
As an FYI, Neither condemning or endorsing, ATF marked FD-258 Fingerprint cards are available on Amazon, as are ink pads.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B6GX7DM8

If you choose to register, and you have multiple pistols, it's a lot easier to roll your own fingerprints.  You can do the whole Form 1 process from the comfort of your house whereing only Ranger Panties and a plate carrier.  (Not just Braced Pistols, but any SBR/SBS/Suppressor.)

You can get them for free from the ATF, but they don't have Prime 1 day shipping.  (In fact ATF hasn't filled my order from Jan yet)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,739
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2023, 11:15:25 AM »
If you choose to register, and you have multiple pistols, it's a lot easier to roll your own fingerprints.  You can do the whole Form 1 process from the comfort of your house whereing only Ranger Panties and a plate carrier.  (Not just Braced Pistols, but any SBR/SBS/Suppressor.)

Interestingly, my LGS is advertising appointments to help people fill out a Form 1, not for the amnesty and a free tax stamp, but they are saying for the "normal" Form 1, to do an SBR and pay the $200. I thought there was no difference between doing the Form 1 for a braced pistol and an SBR, but I'm a dummy.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,669
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2023, 04:37:13 PM »
As far as I can tell without actually submitting one, it's the same form.  You do need to go through their special "Final Rule blahbty blah" site.  There's a big red banner on the main login page, but all that seems to do is lock you out of the other available eforms, makes you click tax exempt, and locks you into a SBR* form 1.

FWIW, while they say they may require pics of the weapon, it's optional to submit them with the Form 1.  They ask for a close up of any existing engraving on the line item part, but they do that on the tax paid Form 1 as well.  There's nothing saying you *HAVE* to give them a picture of the firearm.  Do with that what you will.



* It indeed locks you into an SBR form 1.  I know there are shotguns out there with pistol braces on them.  I wonder if they were all sold under the AOW overall length, or if the ATF just didn't think about them and screwed those owners. (more than they screwed the rest of us.)

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2023, 07:34:30 AM »
As an FYI, Neither condemning or endorsing, ATF marked FD-258 Fingerprint cards are available on Amazon, as are ink pads.
As usual, you're a bad influence.  Ordered the cards last night, started the application for a couple of pistols and will finish it tonight.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2023, 08:59:04 AM »
I have already bought suppressors through Silencer Shop.  I can order finger print cards from them with my prints. 

I had always planned to SBR 2 or 3 of my guns.  I guess I need to take a closer look at that in June. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,739
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2023, 09:05:56 AM »
I had always planned to SBR 2 or 3 of my guns.  I guess I need to take a closer look at that in June.

I had planned to SBR my Canebrake for a while now. I first just plain procrastinated, and now just put it off to see what happens with the rule and lawsuits. The rule is almost making me obstinate about not doing it.  :laugh:
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2023, 11:11:14 AM »
I just plan to submit a Form 1.  I am not trying to register anything with a brace.  May not make a difference.

Friday, the court clarified that the injunction was good for all FPC members and Maxim Defense customers.  Supposedly, they might also get the judge in the GOA case to do the same.  That would cover me.  Of course, I don't want to depend on that.  It would just be nice to know the ATF is not looking to come my way (for a little while).
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2023, 11:13:32 AM »
I just plan to submit a Form 1.  I am not trying to register anything with a brace.  May not make a difference.

Friday, the court clarified that the injunction was good for all FPC members and Maxim Defense customers.  Supposedly, they might also get the judge in the GOA case to do the same.  That would cover me.  Of course, I don't want to depend on that.  It would just be nice to know the ATF is not looking to come my way (for a little while).

I could see the ATF saying or at least try to say the injunction only applies to FPC members who were members at the time of the injunction
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2023, 11:25:03 AM »
I could see the ATF saying or at least try to say the injunction only applies to FPC members who were members at the time of the injunction
Yeah, the judge did not specify dates from what I heard.  If the ATF started going after FPC members and then declining to charge people who were members at that time, would that still be in violation of the injunction?  I can't imagine an ATF tactical team showing up at your door demanding your FPC membership card.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2023, 02:43:25 PM »
Well, it's not like they don't already have a complete roster including addresses, next of kin, known associates, blood type, how many dogs they'll have to shoot, IP addresses for uploading kiddie p0rn on your computers, all banking information.....
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,669
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2023, 05:45:10 AM »
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1663683097274064896?s=20

FPC has voted to amend their membership policy, so if you join today (or did so any time this year) the effective date of your membership is June 1, 2022. Meaning you will have been a member when the lawsuit was filed.

$20 well spent IMNSHO.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #143 on: May 31, 2023, 06:12:27 AM »
Sure, I’m in for $30.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,739
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #144 on: May 31, 2023, 07:32:56 AM »
Yeah, I'm going to join it regardless. They're doing something, and not just on the brace thing. Where is the NRA?

I'm hearing what I would call rumors right now that the GOA lawsuit will end similar to the FPC one, with GOA members covered as well.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,620
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2023, 08:31:07 AM »
John Crump mentioned GOA was asking their judge to issue an injunction referencing the ruling from the FPC case.  He seemed pretty confident it would be done.  I need to check on my GOA membership.  I have given money to FPC before, but not lately.  That will have to change.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #146 on: May 31, 2023, 10:04:48 AM »
14 hours to go
Do you know where your brace is?
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #147 on: May 31, 2023, 10:09:09 AM »
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1663683097274064896?s=20

FPC has voted to amend their membership policy, so if you join today (or did so any time this year) the effective date of your membership is June 1, 2022. Meaning you will have been a member when the lawsuit was filed.

$20 well spent IMNSHO.

Would what is in effect retroactive memberships hold up in court?
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #148 on: May 31, 2023, 10:11:24 AM »
Once you SBR your braced pistol, can you then just throw away the brace and put a real stock on it?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,841
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #149 on: May 31, 2023, 10:15:07 AM »
Once you SBR your braced pistol, can you then just throw away the brace and put a real stock on it?

Yep
Threat like you would any other SBR after that.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 11:32:17 AM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes