The ATF Pistol Brace Rule

[HeroHog]

When does the "roundup" start by the BATFE?

[WLJ]

When does the "roundup" start by the BATFE?

When the ATF agent with the starter pistol shots the dog

[MechAg94]

Is it really mass compliance or is it just that people think you can just remove the brace? 

Yeah, they might try to stretch it into modifying the receivers also, but most people think you just remove the brace if they were aware of the rule change at all. 

[WLJ]

If you want to look at the numbers a somewhat different way somewhere between 2,750,000 and 39,750,000 people woke up last Thursday morning freshly minted felons.

Yes I know some people own multiple braces and that messes with the actual numbers but bear with me since they can't even agree on how many braces are even out total. Anywhere from 3-40 million 

[WLJ]

Someone posted this link on another forum

https://www.armslist.com/posts/14552968/louisville-kentucky-handguns-for-sale--mp5k-package

Listed On: Thursday, June 1, 2023

Just a wee bit suspicious

[Hawkmoon]

Yeah, they might try to stretch it into modifying the receivers also, but most people think you just remove the brace if they were aware of the rule change at all.

That's because the head of the BATFE testified under oath in front of Congress that that's all people have to do to be in compliance.

[HankB]

Someone posted this link on another forum

https://www.armslist.com/posts/14552968/louisville-kentucky-handguns-for-sale--mp5k-package

Just a wee bit suspicious

Brace and vertical foregrip. Just a wee bit suspicious is right. 

[WLJ]

[Ben]

Apparently all Texans are now covered by an injunction:

https://youtu.be/jisyQVBfa9M

[Lennyjoe]

So is it safe to remove the brace and throw it on the shelf if you have a registered SBR that you can possibly use it on?  Asking for a friend….

[dogmush]

So is it safe to remove the brace and throw it on the shelf if you have a registered SBR that you can possibly use it on?  Asking for a friend….

I suspect that in reality it'll depend on how pissed the gov is at your friend.

If they kick in the door for selling machine gun parts online, or a metal card with a picture on it, and find a pistol brace, and an unregistered pistol that could accept it, I'd bet $20 and a bottle of bourbon they tack a constructive possession charge on the whole thing, regardless of any SBR lowers in the house.

I doubt strongly that they are going door to door with SB Tactical's customer list and checking to make sure everyone cut up their pistol brace.

Barring some other behavior to draw the Eye of  Sauron to your house, I'd be pretty surprised if a pistol brace, unmounted, in a closet somewhere got anyone in to trouble with the feds.


If I were to Red Team this, and I was a shitty Revenuer, I would have my guys watching rumble vids and cruising Reddit for someone that I could pin a white supremacy/proud boys/creepy porn tag on who is also talking a big non compliance game online.  A flashy tac team raid on some scary domestic terrorists with dangerous unregistered SBRs is exactly what is needed to get the normies riled up and on the cop's side.  Raiding a suburban dad who bought a short AR in 2020 at Cabela's or Bass Pro and capping the family labradoodle isn't going to have the same punch on Twitter.

[Angel Eyes]

Epoch Times reports that fewer than 10% of braced pistols have been registered per the BATFE's "amnesty":

https://www.theepochtimes.com/less-than-10-percent-of-pistol-braces-registered-with-atf-by-deadline_5310748.html

Not surprised in the least.

[dogmush]

I think a lot of them were taken off or destroyed.  It seems like if you hadn't already waded into the NFA game a lot of people felt it was too much hassle.

At least anecdotally I know 4 or 5 folks that asked me about this over the last couple months  and when faced with getting fingerprints and pictures and all that either sold the guns privately or took the brace off. 

[Ben]

I suspect that in reality it'll depend on how pissed the gov is at your friend.

I think Dogmush called it on how they would enforce it. That said, I suppose if you're a "small fry" who keeps his head down, having one legal SBR to associate with all your "spare braces" might help you in the low probability event of the ATF knocking at your door.

[dogmush]

A new thought occured to me this morning.  The "amnesty" form 1 exempts you from having to engrave the firearm as the "maker".  ATF let's you just use the existing manufacturers marks on the lower.

So theoretically there's a quarter million registered SBRs floating around with no indication that they are, in fact, registered SBRs.  What happens when those things start trickling back into the secondary market?  technically they need to be transferred on a Form 4 with a tax paid, but AR's being AR's there's no guarantee that they will even still have short barrels on them in 10 or 15 years when the registered owner kicks the bucket and their widow sells the collection.

Especially if the rule gets overturned, and braced pistols are suddenly gust normal title i firearms again.  Except for the quarter million that are SBRs for no reason.

[WLJ]

A new thought occured to me this morning.  The "amnesty" form 1 exempts you from having to engrave the firearm as the "maker".  ATF let's you just use the existing manufacturers marks on the lower.

So theoretically there's a quarter million registered SBRs floating around with no indication that they are, in fact, registered SBRs.  What happens when those things start trickling back into the secondary market?  technically they need to be transferred on a Form 4 with a tax paid, but AR's being AR's there's no guarantee that they will even still have short barrels on them in 10 or 15 years when the registered owner kicks the bucket and their widow sells the collection.

Especially if the rule gets overturned, and braced pistols are suddenly gust normal title i firearms again.  Except for the quarter million that are SBRs for no reason.

I guess you could run the SN but
1) How many even know to check?
2) Knowing the govt they'll turn checking into a 6 month jump through flaming hoops process.
3) How many would even bother even if it wasn't a 6 month process?

[MechAg94]

I have never gone the SBR route before.  Do you have to engrave something on the gun when you do that? 


Edited since I left a critical word out.

[WLJ]

I've noticed that many critics of me going the bullpup route to avoid dealing with BS like this for a short compact rifle have been quiet lately.

[cordex]

So theoretically there's a quarter million registered SBRs floating around with no indication that they are, in fact, registered SBRs.  What happens when those things start trickling back into the secondary market?  technically they need to be transferred on a Form 4 with a tax paid, but AR's being AR's there's no guarantee that they will even still have short barrels on them in 10 or 15 years when the registered owner kicks the bucket and their widow sells the collection.

If the weapon is transferred in a non-SBR condition it is by legal definition no longer an SBR anymore, right?  Sure, the ATF might wish you had let them know, and the new owner couldn't put it in SBR configuration without a new Form 1, but SBRs are not a "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" situation.

[cordex]

I've noticed that many critics of me going the bullpup route to avoid dealing with BS like this for a short compact rifle have been quiet lately.

Are any of your bullpups any cheaper than an AR+tax stamp?

[MechAg94]

The Kel-tec RDB is cheaper than a lot of AR's.  Might depend on whether it was on sale or not.  Stuff like the Steyr Aug are cheaper than Daniel Defense or Geissele, but that is up there.

[dogmush]

I guess you could run the SN but
1) How many even know to check?
2) Knowing the govt they'll turn checking into a 6 month jump through flaming hoops process.
3) How many would even bother even if it wasn't a 6 month process?

I'm not sure "running the serial number" runs it through the NFA registry under normal circumstances.  That's not a database LE usually checks for stolen guns, although I confess I don't know exactly how the various state and local databases intersect.

I have gone the SBR route before.  Do you have to engrave something on the gun when you do that? 

Ummmm.......Yes.

When you Form 1 an existing lower into an SBR you are "making" a Title II Firearm, and as the maker are required to engrave your name and city/state onto the firearm.  You can use the Model and serial number that the original manufacturer engraved into the Title I firearm.

*As an aside, if you Form 1 a silencer from scratch, or an 80% lower, you aren't the "maker", but rather the "Original Manufacturer" and have to engrave name, city/state, model number and SN on the new Title II firearm.  All text size and engraving depth requirements that are listed in 27 CFR 479.102

[WLJ]

Are any of your bullpups any cheaper than an AR+tax stamp?

Lets not go there 

But I don't think I've paid more than $1,600 for one except maybe for the Tavor 7. Many ARs get into in that price range. Heck you can get a KT RDB for ~$800.
But
I avoid a lot of govt BS (example this thread)
I can take it out of state without asking for permission
Full length barrel which is huge plus for me. More vel and less muzzle flash and blast.
I like the balance especially with a loaded mag.


I helped a friend built a 7.5" AR and afterwards we compared it to my 16" barreled MSAR (AUG clone) and there was only 1/4" difference in total length.

But to each their own.

[WLJ]

I guess you could run the SN but
1) How many even know to check?
2) Knowing the govt they'll turn checking into a 6 month jump through flaming hoops process.
3) How many would even bother even if it wasn't a 6 month process?

I'm not sure "running the serial number" runs it through the NFA registry under normal circumstances.  That's not a database LE usually checks for stolen guns, although I confess I don't know exactly how the various state and local databases intersect.

Yeah, I don't know. Not sure how the ATF works in that regard

[dogmush]

If the weapon is transferred in a non-SBR condition it is by legal definition no longer an SBR anymore, right?  Sure, the ATF might wish you had let them know, and the new owner couldn't put it in SBR configuration without a new Form 1, but SBRs are not a "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" situation.

I don't think so.  Once it's registered, it's an SBR until the owner submits a letter requesting it's removal from the Registry.  Even if you (for some reason) put a long barrel on your SBR/SBS it's still on the registry as an SBR unless you specifically ask for it to be removed.  You are supposed to tell them if you change barrel length or OAL though.