Author Topic: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule  (Read 1147 times)

WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2023, 10:08:20 AM »
120 days
Unless this is struck down fairly quickly  the ATF is going to be hit with millions of tax stamp apps within a very short period and it will  be interested to see just how jammed up they get and I doubt seriously you're going to see your stamp for a loooong time and probably not within 120 days.

Since I'm not clear on this 120 days thing is it 120 to apply or 120 to get your tax stamp? If the latter are they going to allow for delays or will you be illegally in procession of an SBR after 120 day if you still don't have your tax stamp in hand?. I'm hoping and assuming the former but this is the ATF we're talking about here. And what happens if you get rejected? Are you now automatically a felon?
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2023, 10:08:56 AM »
Not having read the rule yet, I am still in the dark.  I heard a rumor that some "pistols" might still be considered SBR's even with the brace removed.  Have any of you heard that?  It may have been the original version.

As in because of total length? I'm unsure as well, and need to check regarding my Canebrake - 5.5" barrel and 20" overall length with a folding stock. It would certainly fall into a length "gotchya".
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2023, 10:11:12 AM »
120 days
Unless this is struck down fairly quickly  the ATF is going to be hit with millions of tax stamp apps within a very short period and it will  be interested to see just how jammed up they get and I doubt seriously you're going to see your stamp for a loooong time and probably not within 120 days.

Since I'm not clear on this 120 days thing is it 120 to apply or 120 to get your tax stamp? If the latter are they going to allow for delays or will you be illegally in procession of an SBR after 120 day if you still don't have your tax stamp in hand?. I'm hoping and assuming the former but this is the ATF we're talking about here. And what happens if you get rejected? Are you now automatically a felon?

More than one guntuber brought that up and suggested wait times of well over a year based on personnel and number of potential filings. Also some suggestions that ATF might purposely "slow walk" applications.

Also I read that ATF said they would start enforcing this in 60 days regardless of the 120 day grace period.
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K Frame

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2023, 10:13:12 AM »
"What outcome is getting their heads handed to them?  A free tax stamp? Don't throw me in that briar patch."

Oh, you're actually expecting AFT to make this rule and decide that everything is fine and dandy and done and they're not going to change that rule in the future, because... reasons. How many times have they moved forwards, and then backwards, on "brace" rules in the past 10 or so years or however long "braces" have been a thing?

Cute.

May those odds be ever in your favor, Effie Trinket.


And the entire concept of a free tax stamp is the most laughable thing I've ever heard of...

Nothing from the government is ever free.

Ever.


Why would I need to throw any of you into the briar patch when you've all been willingly walking into it from the very start?
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cordex

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2023, 10:15:19 AM »
4. Rule is upheld, people don't give a *expletive deleted*ck and keep their braces.
Eh.  In for a penny, in for a pound.  I'd wager there will be more ignorant ongoing violations than intentional.

My other though is that the current braces are useful enough that people might not run out and drop $100 to slap a stock on there right away. There's not that much added functionality, really*.  New Pistol Brace sales are probably finished though, you are correct there.
They're meh and if you're happy with them then great, but if NFA goes away I'm spending money on stocks not keeping pistol braces.  I might not spend $100 for every one, but I'd drop $40 for an MOE swap all day long.  I'm not trying to undervalue them - they were great options for a long time, but I don't feel like I have to pretend they're just as good.

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2023, 10:35:26 AM »
There are a few outfits discounting some upper tier branded braced pistols recently.  Some went out of stock quickly.  Mrgunsngear posted links on his Telegram feed. 

I think it was mostly EuroOptic.com.  Last one was an LWRC ICDI 300 blackout AR with 10.5" barrel.

Transferring those mail order guns might be a challenge

120 days
Unless this is struck down fairly quickly  the ATF is going to be hit with millions of tax stamp apps within a very short period and it will  be interested to see just how jammed up they get and I doubt seriously you're going to see your stamp for a loooong time and probably not within 120 days.

Since I'm not clear on this 120 days thing is it 120 to apply or 120 to get your tax stamp? If the latter are they going to allow for delays or will you be illegally in procession of an SBR after 120 day if you still don't have your tax stamp in hand?. I'm hoping and assuming the former but this is the ATF we're talking about here. And what happens if you get rejected? Are you now automatically a felon?

It's to submit the Form 1.

From the ATF FAQ:
Quote
25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO
POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A “STABILIZING BRACE” IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO
REGISTER MY FIREARM?
• Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or
State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is
pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as
evidence of continued lawful possession.

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2023, 10:39:08 AM »
"What outcome is getting their heads handed to them?  A free tax stamp? Don't throw me in that briar patch."

Oh, you're actually expecting AFT to make this rule and decide that everything is fine and dandy and done and they're not going to change that rule in the future, because... reasons. How many times have they moved forwards, and then backwards, on "brace" rules in the past 10 or so years or however long "braces" have been a thing?

Cute.

May those odds be ever in your favor, Effie Trinket.


And the entire concept of a free tax stamp is the most laughable thing I've ever heard of...

Nothing from the government is ever free.

Ever.


Why would I need to throw any of you into the briar patch when you've all been willingly walking into it from the very start?

OK Boomer Fudd.

cordex

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2023, 10:46:56 AM »
OK Boomer Fudd.
Boomer Fudd works too.

Pb

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2023, 12:10:59 PM »
What are the lawsuits going to be about?

That pistols with braces aren't SBRs?

That the NFA is unconstitutional?  (pleasant fantasy)

The rule change is capricious?

WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2023, 12:14:52 PM »
What are the lawsuits going to be about?

That pistols with braces aren't SBRs?

That the NFA is unconstitutional?  (pleasant fantasy)

The rule change is capricious?

How about how the ATF and all of their made up as they go "laws"  is unconstitutional
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Hawkmoon

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2023, 12:26:14 PM »
What are the lawsuits going to be about?

That pistols with braces aren't SBRs?

That the NFA is unconstitutional?  (pleasant fantasy)

The rule change is capricious?

This is being discussed over on The Firing Line, and some fairly sharp lawyer types have chimed in. Basically, there is a definition of "rifle" in federal law, in both the NFA and the GCA. And this new BATFE rule changes (expands on) that definition -- and federal rules are not supposed to be allowed to change statutory definitions.

That's one basis on which the new rule could (and probably will) be challenged.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2023, 09:43:06 PM »
Another argument maybe that the ATF approved the brace in an earlier rule and has since gone back against their initial rule?

Like most of you, I’m in a holding pattern on my AR pistol.  If anything I’ll pull the brace and leave it with the buffer tube only.

Heard a rumor tho that the new rule calls for a 6-61/2” buffer tube length rule which is below the industry standard…..but haven’t found the exact verbiage yet.

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2023, 09:51:04 PM »
Heard a rumor tho that the new rule calls for a 6-61/2” buffer tube length rule which is below the industry standard…..but haven’t found the exact verbiage yet.
The rule is not that specific. That would be easy to comply with.  The rule says if the LOP from the "rear surface area" is "consistent with similarly designed rifles" it may be an SBR.

What it does say is that an AR with a 6-6.5" buffer tube may not be an SBR because that's necessary for the firearm to function.

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2023, 09:54:13 PM »
I know it's probably  a fantasy,  but I would like a lawyer to point out that the SBS portion of the NFA was upheld in Miller because in 1939 because "Only weapons that have a reasonable relationship to the effectiveness of a well-regulated militia under the Second Amendment are free from government regulation."

Then hold up an M4.

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2023, 04:32:29 PM »
And a likely to go nowhere bill has been introduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v59slk8IghU

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/381?r=13&s=1

Honestly I think I'm more confused after reading that definition of "Pistol"

Hawkmoon

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2023, 06:47:22 PM »
And a likely to go nowhere bill has been introduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v59slk8IghU

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/381?r=13&s=1

Honestly I think I'm more confused after reading that definition of "Pistol"

? ? ?
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2023, 06:55:17 PM »
Gaetz has one as well. I'm not real crazy about that one either, as he is focusing on braces for disabled people. I would rather that whole "for the disabled" goes away in favor of "for everybody". That using a special class to get it for the rest of us will bite us in the ass. They need to promote SBRs being common use and no different than any other rifle.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gaetz-introduces-abolish-atf-act-ruling-against-stabilizing-braces
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K Frame

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2023, 06:56:54 AM »
Think the Supreme Court is going to have your back when ATF changes its mind on braces... again? Even if you have one of their super special exception stamps?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/supreme-court-rejects-new-york-gun-retailers-bid-block-new-concealed-carry-laws

May the odds be ever in your favor, Effie.
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dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2023, 07:44:03 AM »
Calm down President Snow, If they change their minds again, that means the braces are back to unregulated.  We'll survive.  Just go back to plinking with your .22 at no more than 1 round every 5 sec.


RocketMan

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2023, 11:00:00 AM »
Think the Supreme Court is going to have your back when ATF changes its mind on braces... again? Even if you have one of their super special exception stamps?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/supreme-court-rejects-new-york-gun-retailers-bid-block-new-concealed-carry-laws

May the odds be ever in your favor, Effie.

With that ruling, I think SCOTUS is just saying that the case needs to work its way through the lower courts first before they will look at it.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2023, 06:42:43 PM »
Tried to read the rule and make a determination if I’ll be ok if I put my old pistol tube back on in place of the SB brace.  Here’s a pic of my old tube but the back end isn’t rounded so would the ATF say it’s shoulder able?






dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2023, 07:01:46 PM »
Only the ATF can answer that, and you better get it in writing.

According to the rule, they don't only consider rear surface area, but LOP, sights/optics, overall length, weight, added accessories that indicate two handed use, and the phase of the moon.

Since one of the compliance options is taking off the brace, you would think a bare buffer tube would pass muster, but if that was my plan, I would probably request a determination letter for my pistol, with the serial number in the letter.

I have always questioned the usefulness of an AR pistol sans some kind of brace.  If you don't want to SBR it, why not make it a rifle?  How long is your current barrel?  Can you pin and weld a muzzle device to get it over 16"?

230RN

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2023, 07:12:37 PM »
My dreamworld take on it is that this "new" panel of SCOTUS judges has declined to look at it is so that more and more complainants will join in a massive winner take all joining of cases where they can finally declare that the 2A means exactly what it says in plain simple look-it-up English and be done with the issue.

Bye-bye New York's Sullivan law.  Bye-bye NFA.  Bye-bye GCA.  Bye-bye pre-assumption that what's passed into law must inherently be constitutional by virtue of the officeholders' so-called "oaths" of office.

Oops.  Alarm clock.  Wonder if there's any coffee left from yesterday.  Yawn, stretch, stumble toward the bathroom...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 07:28:53 PM by 230RN »

Lennyjoe

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2023, 07:19:30 PM »
Only the ATF can answer that, and you better get it in writing.

  How long is your current barrel?  Can you pin and weld a muzzle device to get it over 16"?


Barrel is 10”.  Already have a .300 BO SBR on a trust.  Trying to decide if I want to SBR this one or not.  Kind of like the pistol set up I have…. :-[

WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2023, 07:23:55 PM »
120 days
Unless this is struck down fairly quickly  the ATF is going to be hit with millions of tax stamp apps within a very short period and it will  be interested to see just how jammed up they get and I doubt seriously you're going to see your stamp for a loooong time and probably not within 120 days.

Since I'm not clear on this 120 days thing is it 120 to apply or 120 to get your tax stamp? If the latter are they going to allow for delays or will you be illegally in procession of an SBR after 120 day if you still don't have your tax stamp in hand?. I'm hoping and assuming the former but this is the ATF we're talking about here. And what happens if you get rejected? Are you now automatically a felon?

I'm not the only one worried about this especially what happens if you're rejected.
Add to this the 88 days rule on the background checks. If you're not cleared within 88 day it's an auto rejection.
They asked the ATF at Shot Show what happens then and the answer from the ATF was "They'll take an enforcement action at that time"  :facepalm:

BREAKING ATF NEWS! Gun Owners of America Uncovers Fatal Flaw In Pistol Brace Rule...IT'S A TRAP!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggOmUXxVWY
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 07:47:14 PM by WLJ »
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