Author Topic: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule  (Read 20545 times)

HankB

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #100 on: May 24, 2023, 11:03:58 AM »
I do suspect a great many owners of braced pistols have NO idea - none whatsoever - that unelected bureaucrats have decided to make law and make ownership of their own legally purchased braced pistols retroactively illegal.
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2023, 11:19:52 AM »
I do suspect a great many owners of braced pistols have NO idea - none whatsoever - that unelected bureaucrats have decided to make law and make ownership of their own legally purchased braced pistols retroactively illegal.

I would hazard to guess that it's the vast, vast majority. People like those of us here that both shoot and pay attention to the gun community are going to be a very small percentage of AR owners. Like with any other dumb laws that have passed in the past, most people see guns or ammo or magazines in the gun store and just (and I can't blame them) assume it's all legal to purchase and will remain legal to own.
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HankB

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2023, 11:33:12 AM »
I would hazard to guess that it's the vast, vast majority. People like those of us here that both shoot and pay attention to the gun community are going to be a very small percentage of AR owners. Like with any other dumb laws that have passed in the past, most people see guns or ammo or magazines in the gun store and just (and I can't blame them) assume it's all legal to purchase and will remain legal to own.
Quite correct. Thing is, I was seriously considering purchase of either a braced CMMG Banshee or a braced HKMP5 (maybe a clone) with an eye to eventually suppressing it. (Yes, I know about suppressor paperwork.   ;)  )  But if braces become/remain subject to NFA requirements, I may as well just cough up the extra $200 for an actual SBR.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Hawkmoon

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2023, 11:52:38 AM »
I would hazard to guess that it's the vast, vast majority. People like those of us here that both shoot and pay attention to the gun community are going to be a very small percentage of AR owners. Like with any other dumb laws that have passed in the past, most people see guns or ammo or magazines in the gun store and just (and I can't blame them) assume it's all legal to purchase and will remain legal to own.

All too true. My state was one of those that passed an omnibus "gun safety" bill (169 pages worth! in the  aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting. Previously-legal, post-ban configuration AR-15s suddenly became "assult weapons" overnight because the definition of "assault weapon" changed from two evil features allowed to only one. We were given a window (don't remember now if it was 90 days or six months) to register them with the State Police or to dispose of them out of the state.

After considering options and ramifications, I reluctantly registered mine. Several months after the registration window had closed, one of the guys at work asked me how to register his AR. He wasn't happy when I (and several other people) told him he couldn't register it, and that he was now a felon.
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2023, 12:19:28 PM »
I know some of you don't like the Armed Attorneys, but this video was informational to me because (I believe as continued fallout of the ATF Director testifying that all you have to do is separate the brace and the gun) the ATF is apparently pushing a couple of (pre-existing?) terms of art now: "Constructive possession" and "unlawful assembly".

Both terms appear to be related the ATF covering themselves due to the Director's testimony. In other words (IMO), they are inserting the terms into their rules explanations to make it easier for them to prove that having an AR pistol and a separate brace in the same home, gun safe, range bag, or whatever, is "constructive possession" and thus intent.

https://youtu.be/q5XasYQ8W7A
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dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2023, 02:01:30 PM »
The ATF Director's brain fart aside, the ATF has held for as long as I remember that if you had a spare stock, and an AR pistol capable of acepting that stock, you were in constructive possesion of an SBR.  That's the whole reason smooth "pistol" buffer tubes exist, so you could have a tube that didn't accept any stock lying around.

There was never any reason to think once they decided a pistol brace was a stock that they changed their mind on the constructiv posssession thing.

The rule itself says your options are:
Quote
1. Remove the short barrel and attach a 16-inch or longer
rifled barrel to the firearm.
2. Permanently remove and dispose of, or alter, the
“stabilizing brace” such that it cannot be reattached.

3. Turn the firearm into your local ATF office.
4. Destroy the firearm.
5. Register the weapon as set forth below depending on
your category of possessor

bolding mine.  Basically the Directorwas mistaken and/or full of *expletive deleted*it and the ATF is making sure everyone knows what he sadi isn't correct.


ETA and Side Note:  Many pistol braces slide on to a normal carbine 4 or 6 position reciever extension.  While removing and destroying/altering the brace would solve the pistol brace issue arrising from this rule (if that's your choice) you will then be left withan AR pistol sporting a bare Reciever Extension.  If you have any other stocks lying around (or possibly on other guns, it's unclear) you'll be in old school 90's style constructive posssesion of an SBR.  If that's you choice of compliance, smart money would alter the pistol so it won't except stocks, either by swapping to a smooth "pistol" RE, or modifying your carbine RE so it won't accept a stock.

Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2023, 02:46:50 PM »
While removing and destroying/altering the brace would solve the pistol brace issue arrising from this rule (if that's your choice) you will then be left withan AR pistol sporting a bare Reciever Extension.  If you have any other stocks lying around (or possibly on other guns, it's unclear) you'll be in old school 90's style constructive posssesion of an SBR. 

I wonder how they'll handle a 1913 interface?

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dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2023, 03:03:26 PM »
I wonder how they'll handle a 1913 interface?



Depends on how pissed off they are at the person with that pistol.

If it were me, and I were worried about this issue, I would either mill the pic rail off, or SBR that gun.  There's not really anything you can do with that rail EXCEPT put a stock on it so it'd be a PITA to explain in court, even moreso if the owner happened to have a Spear or Vertis in the safe with the stock *right there*.  I have no idea how zealous they are going to be with unregistered SBRs and Constructive Possession vis a vis ex-pistols, but if I were a betting man I'd be they aim to make a few examples to scare the normies away from the line. 

MechAg94

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2023, 04:14:07 PM »
You probably could find a sling attachment ring to put on the rail.  Doesn't remove the rail, but it does provide a legal reason for it to be there. 

"No, I wasn't planning to attach a stock, sir.  I want to attach a sling so I can hide it under a trench coat."   :laugh:   =|   [tinfoil]
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #109 on: May 26, 2023, 03:14:51 PM »
I can't keep track of everything, but the story is probably referencing the same 5th Circuit ruling from a few days ago. Rather than the ruling, what was interesting to me in this story was the numbers of AR pistols reported by ATF.

ATF claims 3 million. The Congressional Research Service is using the number that I usually see - 10 million to 40 million. I'm curious what each of them is using to come up with estimates.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-court-deals-blow-atf-pistol-brace-rule-gun-accessory-registration-deadline
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #110 on: May 26, 2023, 07:43:10 PM »
More interesting news. If you're a Firearms Policy Coalition member, you're exempt from the brace rule. BIG supposedly.

https://youtu.be/Ip5rHrm2Zas

Also Mrgunsngear just dropped this as well:

https://youtu.be/ioEEhmLkxHw
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Angel Eyes

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #111 on: May 26, 2023, 08:24:22 PM »
Sounds suspiciously like a plot by FPC to increase membership, but ... sure, why not ...
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BobR

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #112 on: May 26, 2023, 08:39:02 PM »
It sounds like they did clarify it to apply to Plantiffs listed only.


Quote
Any relief beyond what is explicitly requested, which arguably would
be tantamount to a nationwide injunction, is DENIED.


https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firearmspolicycoalition/pages/6710/attachments/original/1685129339/Mock_v_Garland_Order_on_Motion_for_Clarification.pdf?1685129339

Do we have to join FPC now?   :facepalm:

bob

WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #113 on: May 26, 2023, 09:42:58 PM »
The ATF puts the *expletive deleted*ck in cluster *expletive deleted*ck
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Pb

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #114 on: May 26, 2023, 10:03:49 PM »
Ok, so what is going on with the brace rule?

WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #115 on: May 26, 2023, 10:08:59 PM »
Ok, so what is going on with the brace rule?

If I'm upstanding it right
There's an injunction but it only includes you if you are a member of one of the plaintiff(s) (Firearms Policy Coalition)  otherwise starting next Thursday you're a felon if you have a brace and haven't applied for a tax stamp.
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MechAg94

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #116 on: May 26, 2023, 10:12:28 PM »
If I'm upstanding it right
There's an injunction but it only includes you if you are a member of one of the plaintiff(s) (Firearms Policy Coalition)  otherwise starting next Thursday you're a felon if you have a brace and haven't applied for a tax stamp.
Well, a brace and a pistol capable of using the brace.  Of course, I am not sure if that technicality will matter to the ATF or a jury.
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WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2023, 10:14:27 PM »
Well, a brace and a pistol capable of using the brace.  Of course, I am not sure if that technicality will matter to the ATF or a jury.

ATF has since put out "clarification" that owning a brace is intent which is counter to what the director said before congress. I could be wrong but IIRC just having a brace will be illegal. They could word it differently, aka clarify, AGAIN tomorrow.

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MechAg94

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2023, 10:19:04 PM »
ATF has since put out "clarification" that owning a brace is intent which is counter to what the director said before congress. They could word it differently AGAIN tomorrow.
I heard that.  They pretty much said constructive possession is on the table.  Most people are suggesting to store any removed braces somewhere else.  Then you just have to worry about having a pistol that can easily accept a spare stock that might be in the house. 
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WLJ

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2023, 10:24:47 PM »
See reply 113
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HankB

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #120 on: May 27, 2023, 07:26:28 AM »
ATF has since put out "clarification" that owning a brace is intent which is counter to what the director said before congress. I could be wrong but IIRC just having a brace will be illegal. They could word it differently, aka clarify, AGAIN tomorrow.
I can see a smart attorney referring to the director's sworn testimony in a trial. (He DID say it under oath, didn't he?) Especially if the judge isn't corrupt and allows video of the director's testimony before Congress. So either the director committed perjury, or the other ATF functionaries are lying. Could get pretty messy in court, and entertaining as long as you're not one of the defendants.

Depends on how pissed off they are at the person with that pistol.

If it were me, and I were worried about this issue, I would either mill the pic rail off, or SBR that gun.  There's not really anything you can do with that rail EXCEPT put a stock on it so it'd be a PITA to explain in court, even moreso if the owner happened to have a Spear or Vertis in the safe with the stock *right there*.  I have no idea how zealous they are going to be with unregistered SBRs and Constructive Possession vis a vis ex-pistols, but if I were a betting man I'd be they aim to make a few examples to scare the normies away from the line. 
That type of thinking is what led a lot of people to unnecessarily grind the lugs off their Lugers back in the day. I'd just find something - ANYthing other than a stock or brace - to put on that short length of rail; as others said a sling swivel would do it.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #121 on: May 27, 2023, 09:29:42 AM »
Washington Gun Law weighed in, suggesting that it does indeed encompass everyone associated with FPC and Maxim, but no one else. There is still some talk that this only affects people within the geographic boundaries of the 5th Circuit. I'm a bit perplexed how a Federal court could geofence a Federal ruling. If it's federal, then in my layman's perspective, it should apply across the country.

https://youtu.be/q1563ZTnTqE
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HankB

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #122 on: May 27, 2023, 10:25:38 AM »
Washington Gun Law weighed in, suggesting that it does indeed encompass everyone associated with FPC and Maxim, but no one else. There is still some talk that this only affects people within the geographic boundaries of the 5th Circuit. I'm a bit perplexed how a Federal court could geofence a Federal ruling. If it's federal, then in my layman's perspective, it should apply across the country.

https://youtu.be/q1563ZTnTqE
There are quite a few instances when different circuits issue conflicting rulings - SCOTUS is more inclined to hear cases where lower courts have basically created different laws for different parts of the country, even when the cases are political hot potatoes.
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Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

dogmush

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #123 on: May 27, 2023, 10:50:13 AM »
I can see a smart attorney referring to the director's sworn testimony in a trial. (He DID say it under oath, didn't he?) Especially if the judge isn't corrupt and allows video of the director's testimony before Congress. So either the director committed perjury, or the other ATF functionaries are lying. Could get pretty messy in court, and entertaining as long as you're not one of the defendants.

I suspect that any lawyer or judge will tell you that's not how it works.  The Director said plenty of times that he wasn't an expert on firearms, or the laws concerning them.  Any reasonable court would find that he wasn't committing perjury, he was just mistaken.  The rule will continue to mean what it pretty plainly stated until a court or legislation changes it.  The ATF Director does not have the ability to change CFR's on a whim, just by saying they mean something different.

Ben

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Re: The ATF Pistol Brace Rule
« Reply #124 on: May 27, 2023, 11:38:20 AM »
I suspect that any lawyer or judge will tell you that's not how it works.  The Director said plenty of times that he wasn't an expert on firearms, or the laws concerning them.  Any reasonable court would find that he wasn't committing perjury, he was just mistaken.  The rule will continue to mean what it pretty plainly stated until a court or legislation changes it.  The ATF Director does not have the ability to change CFR's on a whim, just by saying they mean something different.

Not a knock on your post, just an observation. I still find it extraordinary that we can have an ATF Director (and thus any gov official in charge of something) who can almost with pride say that they have no expertise in the area they control.
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