Author Topic: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct  (Read 11375 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #275 on: January 26, 2023, 09:48:01 PM »
What I am against regarding law is that the persons who mediate and make law, legislators; judges; police, punish persons for not being determined to action or inaction by law, while all the while, law is not, cannot be, determinative/originative of human action, which is precisely what legislators; judges; and police believe, i.e., that language of law is determinative/originative of their actions and, of human actions.  Thus we live in a world running on the basis that law is a determinative of human conduct, which is entirely mistaken!

No, you are mistaken. Neither legislators, judges, nor police believe that laws will absolutely determine human actions. The best they expect or hope for is that laws will influence human behavior. How can it do that? Because actions have consequences. And the consequences of acting contrary to law involve punishment. Thus, while law does not assure human behavior, law can direct human behavior toward the direction of doing that which will not result in punishment/penalty.

Is that "determinative"? To a degree, yes ... but it's not a guarantee.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #276 on: January 26, 2023, 09:49:19 PM »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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cordex

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #277 on: January 26, 2023, 09:54:20 PM »
You are radically ignorant dogmush!
Dogmush has his faults, but radical ignorance is not one of them.  He is correctly pointing out one of the multitude of fundamental flaws in your claims.

There are some points we could all probably find common ground on. Like you, I oppose misuse of governmental authority and police abuses.

If you are physically capable of getting outside, I recommend spending some time enjoying your property.  Smell some fresh air. Touch grass. Maybe cut down a tree. Build something you can be proud of. Plant a garden this spring, and tend to it. Spend some time in the sun when you can.

Wallowing in bitterness wrapped in unintelligible nonsense isn’t helping you.

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #278 on: January 26, 2023, 09:59:04 PM »
No, you are mistaken. Neither legislators, judges, nor police believe that laws will absolutely determine human actions. The best they expect or hope for is that laws will influence human behavior. How can it do that? Because actions have consequences. And the consequences of acting contrary to law involve punishment. Thus, while law does not assure human behavior, law can direct human behavior toward the direction of doing that which will not result in punishment/penalty.

Is that "determinative"? To a degree, yes ... but it's not a guarantee.
Yes, they do not believe law absolutely determinative. Nonetheless, law is intended to be determinative, especially determinative of NOT doing X.

cordex

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #279 on: January 26, 2023, 10:04:24 PM »
Yes, they do not believe law absolutely determinative. Nonetheless, law is intended to be determinative, especially determinative of NOT doing X.
No. If it was believed that law determined behavior then there would be no need for enforcement.

You are fractally wrong.

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #280 on: January 26, 2023, 10:11:44 PM »
Dogmush has his faults, but radical ignorance is not one of them.  He is correctly pointing out one of the multitude of fundamental flaws in your claims.

There are some points we could all probably find common ground on. Like you, I oppose misuse of governmental authority and police abuses.

If you are physically capable of getting outside, I recommend spending some time enjoying your property.  Smell some fresh air. Touch grass. Maybe cut down a tree. Build something you can be proud of. Plant a garden this spring, and tend to it. Spend some time in the sun when you can.

Wallowing in bitterness wrapped in unintelligible nonsense isn’t helping you.
I am in my extremely beautiful extensive woods every other day, cutting firewood.

Oh, you think you can continually insult me repeatedly because you are some kind of site pig!?
I do not deal in unintelligible nonsense; you simply lack the IQ to comprehend the Sartre I present! I am not wallowing in bitterness! But, you do, right now, really piss me off...

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #281 on: January 26, 2023, 10:21:36 PM »
No. If it was believed that law determined behavior then there would be no need for enforcement.

You are fractally wrong.
You freaks are disagreeing with every single solitary thing I write!
Law is written primarily to determine persons NOT to act on such and such a wise; tell me I am wrong about law being written to determine persons NOT to do things, and, I will be certain you are purposely continually screwing with me.

WLJ

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #282 on: January 26, 2023, 10:23:04 PM »
If finding out no one here buys into any of this Sartre business upsets you so much may I suggest finding another forum. I suggest either that or to agree to disagree on this matter and move on to some other topic.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #283 on: January 26, 2023, 10:28:13 PM »
You log on here, make pretentious pronouncement and get your knickers in a wad when someone dares to disagree with your enlightened decree.
You call us freaks and also proclaim that those that disagree with you are absurdly ignorant and then get all pissy about it if some one comes back at you in the same vein.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fUIe0X464Tg
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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cordex

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #284 on: January 26, 2023, 10:35:52 PM »
You freaks are disagreeing with every single solitary thing I write!
No we aren’t!   :P

Law is written primarily to determine persons NOT to act on such and such a wise; tell me I am wrong about law being written to determine persons NOT to do things, and, I will be certain you are purposely continually screwing with me.
Laws are certainly written to discourage certain behaviors. To influence them, and punish when lines are crossed.

That is a different thing entirely than saying law is, or is intended to be the origin of human behavior.

Perd Hapley

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #285 on: January 26, 2023, 10:36:45 PM »
You are radically ignorant dogmush!

And here I thought he was just regular ignorant. Bosco, you've opened my eyes!


Hey, man, I think the judge was probably telling you that the law required him to do something in a particular case. Sounds to me like he was just doing his job, and trying to stay within the rules.
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Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #286 on: January 26, 2023, 10:38:03 PM »
You log on here, make pretentious pronouncement and get your knickers in a wad when someone dares to disagree with your enlightened decree.
You call us freaks and also proclaim that those that disagree with you are absurdly ignorant and then get all pissy about it if some one comes back at you in the same vein.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fUIe0X464Tg
You weirdos are openly stating that you are out to destroy my "philosophy" and, redirect my extensive vocabulary onto some other course. You are simply freaks out to screw with new members, for fun. You are totally viscious and radically stupid-asses...

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #287 on: January 26, 2023, 10:44:29 PM »
And here I thought he was just regular ignorant. Bosco, you've opened my eyes!


Hey, man, I think the judge was probably telling you that the law required him to do something in a particular case. Sounds to me like he was just doing his job, and trying to stay within the rules.
Yes he was Perd, and, he said that he was bound and determined by law to do such and such. I will never forget that, I was about 21. So, that is how I know judges feel determined by law!

WLJ

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #288 on: January 26, 2023, 10:48:47 PM »
Yes he was Perd, and, he said that he was bound and determined by law to do such and such. I will never forget that, I was about 21. So, that is how I know judges feel determined by law!

Around 1967-69 right? I'm guessing the years based on your ideas.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Doggy Daddy

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #290 on: January 26, 2023, 10:54:01 PM »
You weirdos are openly stating that you are out to destroy my "philosophy" and, redirect my extensive vocabulary onto some other course. You are simply freaks out to screw with new members, for fun. You are totally viscious and radically stupid-asses...

We're not out to destroy your philosophy. We just disagree with it and don't accept it as a universal truth the way you do. We have expressed the reasons why we disagree and have been met with insults by you for that.
No one here gives a hammered rat turd what you believe and have no desire to change your belief. If you want to believe in Santa clause feel free. We also have many devout Christians, a fair number of atheists and maybe a wiccan or two and we all peacefully coexist with only the occasional (mostly) good natured jab at each other.
Demanding that we accept your philosophy as an enlightened truth because you said so is arrogant beyond the pale.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

WLJ

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #291 on: January 26, 2023, 10:55:25 PM »
We're not out to destroy your philosophy. We just disagree with it and don't accept it as a universal truth the way you do. We have expressed the reasons why we disagree and have been met with insults by you for that.
No one here gives a hammered rat turd what you believe and have no desire to change your belief. If you want to believe in Santa clause feel free. We also have many devout Christians, a fair number of atheists and maybe a wiccan or two and we all peacefully coexist with only the occasional (mostly) good natured jab at each other.
Demanding that we accept your philosophy as an enlightened truth because you said so is arrogant beyond the pale.

Think maybe even a democrat or two  :P
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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WLJ

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #292 on: January 26, 2023, 10:57:17 PM »
And we even listen to both kinds of music, country and western.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Bosco1

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #293 on: January 26, 2023, 10:58:04 PM »
No we aren’t!   :P
Laws are certainly written to discourage certain behaviors. To influence them, and punish when lines are crossed.

That is a different thing entirely than saying law is, or is intended to be the origin of human behavior.
Law is absolutely intended to originate certain behavior.  At one time in America there was no federal income tax; then, a law was written requiring persons to pay the income tax, which paying said tax in accordance with the new law was a behavior intended by the legislators to be started/originated by the language of the new law!
Law is very clearly intended to be the origin of behavior!
If you and your buddies here were not intentionally deliberately screwing with me for fun, you would not be acting so stupid/dense regarding law as determinative of conduct, and, disagreeing with every single thing I say, on purpose!

RoadKingLarry

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #294 on: January 26, 2023, 10:58:25 PM »
Think maybe even a democrat or two  :P

You take that back!!
 :mad:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Nick1911

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #295 on: January 26, 2023, 10:59:50 PM »
If you weren't interested in discussing your philosophical viewpoint, why did you post it?

This is a discussion forum.  We discuss things.  Obviously folks are going to try to find out what you mean (which isn't easy due to your syntax), ask questions about it, and challenge bits that are in contradiction with their worldview, experience and beliefs.

WLJ

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #296 on: January 26, 2023, 11:01:15 PM »
And having a sense of humor about differing ideas gets you a lot further than insults.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

RoadKingLarry

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #297 on: January 26, 2023, 11:03:02 PM »
Law is absolutely intended to originate certain behavior.  At one time in America there was no federal income tax; then, a law was written requiring persons to pay the income tax, which paying said tax in accordance with the new law was a behavior intended by the legislators to be started/originated by the language of the new law!
Law is very clearly intended to be the origin of behavior!
If you and your buddies here were not intentionally deliberately screwing with me for fun, you would not be acting so stupid/dense regarding law as determinative of conduct, and, disagreeing with every single thing I say, on purpose!

We disagree because we reject you assertions and pronouncements. Your demands that we accept your philosophy are laughable.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #298 on: January 26, 2023, 11:28:42 PM »
If you and your buddies here were not intentionally deliberately screwing with me for fun, you would not be acting so stupid/dense regarding law as determinative of conduct, and, disagreeing with every single thing I say, on purpose!

I agree completely. I can't speak for anyone else who has participated in this discussion, but I freely acknowledge that I disagree with you on purpose. I do so because I do not agree with you, and therefore it is my purpose in responding to you to express my disagreement. Did you not invite commentary on your thesis by posting it?

Would you be happier if we all said our disagreements with you were NOT on purpose, but were entirely accidental and coincidental?

If you joined this forum with any expectation that our members would simply read your treatise and accept your premise unquestioningly ... you came to the wrong Internet forum. As a rule, nobody here agrees with anybody. We like it that way ... it keeps life interesting.
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cordex

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Re: “Law” is Not Determinative of Conduct
« Reply #299 on: January 26, 2023, 11:41:02 PM »
Law is very clearly intended to be the origin of behavior!
Not in the way Sartre was talking about. Surely you of all people here understand that.

When a guest comes to my home I might ask them to remove their shoes and they might do so.  My request was not the origin of their action by Sartre’s definition, though it certainly impacted their actions. Instead it was ultimately their choice, their mind, their animus, their internal decision making that determined whether they would comply with my request.

You keep sloppily conflating the internal expression of will and external influences on behavior. If this were a colloquial conversation I would agree that law is intended to impose certain actions and inactions on people. However, you have relied heavily - almost exclusively - on Sartre’s commentary on the subject, and when he speaks of origin of action he is referring to internal motivation, not merely influence. He is making a point that actions are not preordained and that a human has choice - thereby freedom - regardless of the situation. 

Law is absolutely intended to influence behavior - and indeed is blunt and heavy-handed in so doing. Law is unable and generally not intended to impact human mental autonomy and intention, except to the extent that people respond to threats.

If you want to use the common vernacular and mash together the two concepts then you cannot use Sartre’s formalized definitions and extrapolate using his jargon.