Another Police Beating

[Ben]

So this one happened in OCT last year. Last week the cops were exonerated of wrongdoing. I haven't seen the whole video, but Warrior Poet Society put out a video today analyzing what happened.

This actually looks worse to me than the Memphis beating, and nothing happened to the cops. The synopsis is that you see this guy (mentally unstable?) talking to the cops in a friendly manner. As they back their car away, he pulls out a pistol and shoots at them, striking their vehicle several times. He then calmly walks into the convenience store where this took place, ditches the gun, and waits for the cops. They come in, he immediately surrenders, and they wail on him - kicking him in the head, stabbing him with rifle muzzles, etc. There is a good deal of blood and he is just laying there moaning. They cuff him. Then they start wailing on him again.

I mean, he shot at them, so he's a criminal (or a loon), and even if you give the cops the benefit of the doubt for the pre-handcuffs beating (though I have trouble doing so), I don't see how you can justify what they did after he was restrained. I can't believe they got off scot free.

https://youtu.be/5dBoO0XAHXA

[Ben]

Oh, in the comments at WPS, it was pointed out that the muzzle jabs are called "compliance strikes" to get the person to move his hands to where it hurts so he can be more easily cuffed. This is apparently taught as valid procedure?

[dogmush]

"Never point your muzzle at something you are not willing to destroy"

[230RN]

I see it as another example of pack behavior in humans.  We are not above our instincts and can/will become rabid uninhibited beasts when one of us starts "barking" and "nipping" at a victim.

This kind of behavior occurs across species.  A group of monkeys will literally (literally) tear a strange monkey apart.

As I always say, one dog is a dog.  Two dogs is a pack.

Sorry folks, but we are not above our instincts.  We only think we are while sitting in front of our monitors or enjoying a good book or loosening our belts after a good meal.

Terry, 230RN

REF (Page 1):
https://youtu.be/sdktDOeG2VI (0:43)

[cordex]

Eh. Doesn’t look pretty, but they had just been shot at by the guy so they knew he was armed, and didn’t realize he had put his gun down on the counter (hence asking where the gun was). Him squirming around - even in cuffs - could easily have been him trying to get to his pistol.

Worse than the Memphis beating?!  I’m not seeing that at all.

"Never point your muzzle at something you are not willing to destroy"

Something the pistol cop really needs to think about given how many times he was flagging his partner. I’ve heard he was a rookie, so that may explain some of that.

Compliance strikes aren’t necessarily performed with a firearm, and striking with a gun isn’t typically the first choice, but was the above supposed to be pearl clutching because the cops covered the guy who just shot at them?

[230RN]

"Eh," yourself.  If you're talking about the  Rodney King vid I posted, you look at 0:14 and tell me that was a compliance kick, and I'll have to laugh at you.

Let others judge,... as they have.  I call it vicious pack behavior.

I have a lot of LEOs and firemen in my family and I'm willing to forgive a lot.  But not with these specific clear-cut instances.

Sorry, cordex --if you're referring to the Rodney King video.

Terry, 230RN

[cordex]

I wasn’t addressing your post, Terry. I was addressing the case referenced by Ben at the beginning of the thread.

[230RN]

OK, thanks for making that more clear.

[Pb]

He shot at a cop?  It is a miracle he is still alive.

[Ben]

Worse than the Memphis beating?!  I’m not seeing that at all.

To me, the kicks to the head are well beyond "adrenalin rush". As we've discussed before, head blows are no joke. We've talked about how antifa that have hit cops on the head should be punished. Cops repeatedly kicking a guy in the head should be punished as well, IMO.

[230RN]

...

[WLJ]

Oh, in the comments at WPS, it was pointed out that the muzzle jabs are called "compliance strikes" to get the person to move his hands to where it hurts so he can be more easily cuffed. This is apparently taught as valid procedure?

Note how many flash suppressors on the market have sharp points often referred to as Medieval Flash Suppressors on many sites. The often advertised idea is that they make it easier to break glass (yeah right) among other things. I've seen it said their main purpose is to make it easier to hold someone in placed with the muzzle.

[230RN]

^
Yeah, and brass knuckles are to protect your fingers.

To me, the kicks to the head are well beyond "adrenalin rush". As we've discussed before, head blows are no joke. We've talked about how antifa that have hit cops on the head should be punished. Cops repeatedly kicking a guy in the head should be punished as well, IMO.

Is that the new softened-down description of "vicious unthinking pack behavior?"

'Cause that's what it is.

But I like to be up-to-date on the latest euphemisms, so I figured I'd ask.

Terry, 230RN

[cordex]

To me, the kicks to the head are well beyond "adrenalin rush".

You mean the ones before they had him restrained?  Maybe.  I think the rifle cop was trying to stomp him down to keep him facedown but did appear to bounce his head off the floor.  The rookie pistol cop was trying to do everything the rifle cop was doing, but weaker (head stomp and muzzle punches).

Again, though, the context was that he had just shot at them and then run into an occupied store.  At that stage as far as they knew they were still dealing with an armed, unrestrained, unsearched active shooter. 

Once he was restrained but before the officers had searched him he tries to roll over and the rifle cop kicks him once in the shoulder blades. 

As we've discussed before, head blows are no joke. We've talked about how antifa that have hit cops on the head should be punished. Cops repeatedly kicking a guy in the head should be punished as well, IMO.

In hindsight we know that at that point he had already put his gun down so we can see his surrender as genuine.  If I consider what the responding officers knew in the moment, I see it as less black and white as you apparently do.  They had narrowly survived being shot at by this guy, were running after him into an occupied building (as John correctly points out, sacrificing solid tactics for expedience as we demand of our police in an active shooter situation).  They saw him apparently giving up but did not yet see the pistol on the counter, nor if they had could they assume that was his only weapon.  The guy was mere seconds into his sudden retirement from being an active shooter and apparently his retirement notifications hadn't made it to their inbox.

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement.  I'm not saying every move was perfectly how I would script it.  However, given the totality of the circumstances I wouldn't say their actions are in any way comparable to the Tyre Nichols murder.  Absolutely, and unreservedly not worse. 

The most complete video I've seen is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FkTV4RVr8

[cordex]

Is that the new softened-down description of "vicious unthinking pack behavior?"

No, the two things are very different.  Both can contribute to a situation, but an individual can have an overblown fight or flight response just as members of a group can.

Members of a group can egg each other into doing evil things independent of adrenaline as well.

[Ben]

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement.  I'm not saying every move was perfectly how I would script it.  However, given the totality of the circumstances I wouldn't say their actions are in any way comparable to the Tyre Nichols murder.  Absolutely, and unreservedly not worse. 

The most complete video I've seen is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FkTV4RVr8

This might be one of those "agree to disagree" things. The more complete video makes it seem worse to me.

[cordex]

This might be one of those "agree to disagree" things. The more complete video makes it seem worse to me.

Maybe so, but have you not seen the videos of Tyre Nichols being beaten?

[Ben]

Maybe so, but have you not seen the videos of Tyre Nichols being beaten?

Well. with Nichols it's more cops doing the same kind of thing to (as far as we know) an innocent person.

I will say that the comments at the video link you posted are gleefully running 95% against me, so I may certainly have the minority opinion on this. I can only hope that not too many of the commentors are cops.

[Ben]

I've seen it said their main purpose is to make it easier to hold someone in placed with the muzzle.

In the comments at the WPS link, someone, I assume jokingly, asked John which rifle class teaches muzzle strikes. His (I assume) serious answer was that they do indeed teach it in their "one man room clearing" class.

So it may very well be a valid tactic. I've just never heard of it before. As a non-BTDT guy, I've always been more concerned with training that keeps my gun out of reach of the bad guy.

[cordex]

Well. with Nichols it's more cops doing the same kind of thing to (as far as we know) an innocent person.

"The same kind of thing"?  Seriously?

Look, the relative guilt of the individual is not an invalid distinction, and obviously when someone unlawfully initiates violence they have bought and paid for all manner of nasty.  That said, do you really see a handful of strikes - including one head stomp that might have been particularly dangerous - as comparable to the repeated pepper spraying, tasing, multiple face kicks including at least one with a running start, baton strikes, haymakers, etc. that ended up killing Nichols?

I will say that the comments at the video link you posted are gleefully running 95% against me, so I may certainly have the minority opinion on this. I can only hope that not too many of the commentors are cops.

Ugh, youtube comments?  You should try to kick that habit.

[MechAg94]

Viral Cop Head Stomp Breakdown - Donut Operator
https://youtu.be/yMPpg3LVRo0


I haven't seen the original video.  I assume this is the same incident. 

[MillCreek]

Oh, in the comments at WPS, it was pointed out that the muzzle jabs are called "compliance strikes" to get the person to move his hands to where it hurts so he can be more easily cuffed. This is apparently taught as valid procedure?

Because I like to learn something every day, if I am stopped at police gunpoint to be taken into custody, is there a certain position or where I should place my hands to minimize people jabbing me with rifle muzzles or beating me down?  I always thought that if I kneeled with my back to the police and my fingers interlaced behind my head, they could most easily cuff me and no one is off to the beatdown races.  A local deputy once told me to do this or to lie prone with all four limbs spreadeagled.

[cordex]

Because I like to learn something every day, if I am stopped at police gunpoint to be taken into custody, is there a certain position or where I should place my hands to minimize people jabbing me with rifle muzzles or beating me down?  I always thought that if I kneeled with my back to the police and my fingers interlaced behind my head, they could most easily cuff me and no one is off to the beatdown races.  A local deputy once told me to do this or to lie prone with all four limbs spreadeagled.

Do you plan on having recently shot at police?

[MechAg94]

Because I like to learn something every day, if I am stopped at police gunpoint to be taken into custody, is there a certain position or where I should place my hands to minimize people jabbing me with rifle muzzles or beating me down?  I always thought that if I kneeled with my back to the police and my fingers interlaced behind my head, they could most easily cuff me and no one is off to the beatdown races.  A local deputy once told me to do this or to lie prone with all four limbs spreadeagled.

That won't work.  When they ask you to belly crawl toward them after that, they will still shoot you when your hand moves wrong. 


(see old story of man shot in an Arizona hotel hallway by officer with a punisher logo on his rifle)

[MillCreek]

Do you plan on having recently shot at police?

No, but I do think of this on occasion in case I do have interaction with the police.  I have a severe bilateral hearing loss, and if I cannot hear or make out their verbal commands, what should I do to minimize risk to everyone?