Author Topic: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?  (Read 2246 times)

Pb

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Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« on: July 12, 2023, 08:00:30 AM »
With US v. Rahimi being in the news, I have a question- what due process, if any, is involved in a getting a restraining order placed on someone?

MechAg94

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2023, 09:45:07 AM »
I thought the subject of the restraining order gets a chance to give their side in a hearing before a judge. 

That said: 
I don't know what the standards of evidence are for issuing a restraining order.  Does the person need to show police reports or other evidence besides just testimony/affidavit?  How hard or easy is it to fight one?  I imagine that varies by judge.

There seems to be a lost of boilerplate language in typical restraining orders from what I hear.  My impression is that it is difficult to get prohibitions like gun possession removed or amended.  I have no direct experience so if someone does, I would like to know if that is wrong.
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HankB

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2023, 10:08:39 AM »
. . .   I imagine that varies by judge . . .
I strongly suspect that part of your post is correct.

As for the rest - I simply don't know, since neither I nor anyone close to me has been subject to a restraining order. Although from what I've read, "Red Flag" orders - which to this non-lawyer look like a special type of restraining order - are usually issued and then enforced without notifying the subject of the order before the cops show up to seize his stuff. No due process involved.
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Kingcreek

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2023, 10:14:32 AM »
Doesn’t it vary by state?
I know a guy whose live in girlfriend ran off with a biker, came home 2 weeks later with new boyfriend and a sheriffs deputy followed them into the driveway.
She had a TRO against him (based on nothing but her allegations) and the deputy stood by while he was allowed to get his wallet, phone, and truck keys. Biker dude stood on the porch drinking one of his beers and laughing while he was escorted out of the house he bought 5 years before he met her.
By the time he got back in his own house he had been cleaned out and the house was trashed.
I think here at least, temporary ROs are handed out like holloween candy but there has to be a hearing to extend them.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

MechAg94

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2023, 10:59:28 AM »
Doesn’t it vary by state?
I know a guy whose live in girlfriend ran off with a biker, came home 2 weeks later with new boyfriend and a sheriffs deputy followed them into the driveway.
She had a TRO against him (based on nothing but her allegations) and the deputy stood by while he was allowed to get his wallet, phone, and truck keys. Biker dude stood on the porch drinking one of his beers and laughing while he was escorted out of the house he bought 5 years before he met her.
By the time he got back in his own house he had been cleaned out and the house was trashed.
I think here at least, temporary ROs are handed out like holloween candy but there has to be a hearing to extend them.
Prior to Red Flag laws, I didn't think RO's were issued without a hearing in which the subject of the RO was given a chance to argue against it.  Sounds like that state has some different laws. 

Here in Texas, I know live in girlfriends can still take half your stuff as if you were married so similar results can still happen. 
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Kingcreek

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2023, 11:10:03 AM »
This is IL Annoy.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

dogmush

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2023, 11:18:42 AM »
Prior to Red Flag laws, I didn't think RO's were issued without a hearing in which the subject of the RO was given a chance to argue against it.  Sounds like that state has some different laws. 

Here in Texas, I know live in girlfriends can still take half your stuff as if you were married so similar results can still happen.

I don't know about that.  I know some guys in FL that got into bad breakups and had a DVRO filed by the soon to be ex.  Order was signed by the judge and enforced immediatly, and the guy could set up a hearing to contest it in a week or two, depending on how busy the court was.

Here's the relevant FL Statute:
Quote from:  FL Statute 741.30
(4) Upon the filing of the petition, the court shall set a hearing to be held at the earliest possible time. The respondent shall be personally served with a copy of the petition, financial affidavit, Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act affidavit, if any, notice of hearing, and temporary injunction, if any, prior to the hearing.

(5)
(a) If it appears to the court that an immediate and present danger of domestic violence exists, the court may grant a temporary injunction ex parte, pending a full hearing, and may grant such relief as the court deems proper, including an injunction:
1. Restraining the respondent from committing any acts of domestic violence.
2. Awarding to the petitioner the temporary exclusive use and possession of the dwelling that the parties share or excluding the respondent from the residence of the petitioner.
3. On the same basis as provided in s. 61.13, providing the petitioner a temporary parenting plan, including a time-sharing schedule, which may award the petitioner up to 100 percent of the time-sharing. The temporary parenting plan remains in effect until the order expires or an order is entered by a court of competent jurisdiction in a pending or subsequent civil action or proceeding affecting the placement of, access to, parental time with, adoption of, or parental rights and responsibilities for the minor child.
4. Awarding to the petitioner the temporary exclusive care, possession, or control of an animal that is owned, possessed, harbored, kept, or held by the petitioner, the respondent, or a minor child residing in the residence or household of the petitioner or respondent. The court may order the respondent to temporarily have no contact with the animal and prohibit the respondent from taking, transferring, encumbering, concealing, harming, or otherwise disposing of the animal. This subparagraph does not apply to an animal owned primarily for a bona fide agricultural purpose, as defined under s. 193.461, or to a service animal, as defined under s. 413.08, if the respondent is the service animal’s handler.

...

(c) Any such ex parte temporary injunction shall be effective for a fixed period not to exceed 15 days. A full hearing, as provided by this section, shall be set for a date no later than the date when the temporary injunction ceases to be effective. The court may grant a continuance of the hearing before or during a hearing for good cause shown by any party, which shall include a continuance to obtain service of process. Any injunction shall be extended if necessary to remain in full force and effect during any period of continuance.


sumpnz

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2023, 11:41:04 AM »
I don't know about that.  I know some guys in FL that got into bad breakups and had a DVRO filed by the soon to be ex.  Order was signed by the judge and enforced immediatly, and the guy could set up a hearing to contest it in a week or two, depending on how busy the court was.

Here's the relevant FL Statute:

I think that’s pretty common in most states.  Often the whole point of an RO is that the person seeking it is in fear of their life from the subject.  So, it gets enforced and then the subject can challenge it afterwards.  If it was never abused that would be a reasonable setup.  But it’s abused on every day ending in “y”. 

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2023, 11:42:10 AM »
I had an ex do an RO out of spite, back in the early 2000's.  Scared the *expletive deleted*it out of me.  I was working for a school district's IT department at the time and I had happened to take a vacation day on the day that police showed up at my workplace to serve me an RO, making all my coworkers aware of the situation.

I lived one town over, out of the jurisdiction of the serving officer.  A coworker called me and told me about what was going on, and I got in touch with the serving officer and met him so he could serve me.  I think in this point of my life I only had 2-3 firearms at the time.  I sold them to a friend so they weren't in my house any more. 

The RO was issued by a judge in her town, 15 miles north of me.  I contested it.  It took about a month to get a hearing.  I happened to have documentation of our disagreements, in email form, that I presented to the judge that the RO was vindictive rather than out of any concern for her safety and that I had never threatened her.  I won the argument and the RO was quashed.

After quashing the RO I bought my firearms back from my friend.  I presented evidence of the quashed RO and vindictive actions to my boss at work to ensure that there was no concern with my employment, with it being a school district.

Sadly with RO's the due process is after the fact. 
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Tuco

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2023, 12:58:50 PM »
With US v. Rahimi being in the news, I have a question- what due process, if any, is involved in a getting a restraining order placed on someone?
None. Zero.
Get thrown in jail because someone said something,  plead not guilty, get a preliminary hearing date, arrange a suitcase pickup at the convenience of the local fuzz, can't go home until again after not guilty verdict.
Michigan.
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Tuco

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2023, 02:06:24 PM »
...
7-11 was a part time job.

Pb

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2023, 03:59:03 PM »
None. Zero.
Get thrown in jail because someone said something,  plead not guilty, get a preliminary hearing date, arrange a suitcase pickup at the convenience of the local fuzz, can't go home until again after not guilty verdict.
Michigan.

Did this happen to you?

Tuco

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2023, 04:54:38 PM »
Did this happen to you?

No. A very close friend.
He may have had better luck with more advanced legal representation. It was a mess.
7-11 was a part time job.

MechAg94

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2023, 05:33:11 PM »
A guy at work said the same thing.  RO's being easy to get here with the hearing after the fact.   =(
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2023, 06:54:42 PM »
With US v. Rahimi being in the news, I have a question- what due process, if any, is involved in a getting a restraining order placed on someone?

Most civil liberties advocates will tell you that the new breed of protective orders don't respect due process, because the complaint is filed and the initial review of the application is ex parte, which means the victim of the order (not the alleged victim of whatever awful things the subject of the order is alleged to have perpetrated) is not notified and is not represented. If an order is issued (and they usually are), it is temporary and a hearing is supposed to be held (generally within two weeks) at which the subject/victim of the order finally has a chance to present a defense and tell his/her side of the story. But for that two-week period, if the subject of the order had firearms, they have to be surrendered, and he/she is left defenseless.

I am in the camp that believes these orders, and the entire process, does not satisfy any reasonable standard of due process.

The proponents of these orders claim that the laws do respect due process, because the victims (subjects) of the orders are afforded a hearing within a "reasonable" time of the issuance of the order. The problem is, though, that the order has already been issued -- the hearing is only to decide if it becomes permanent. This means that the subject of the order must prove his/her innocence, rather than the complainant having to prove the subject's guilt. That makes the process backwards.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2023, 05:59:56 AM »
Doesn’t it vary by state?
I know a guy whose live in girlfriend ran off with a biker, came home 2 weeks later with new boyfriend and a sheriffs deputy followed them into the driveway.
She had a TRO against him (based on nothing but her allegations) and the deputy stood by while he was allowed to get his wallet, phone, and truck keys. Biker dude stood on the porch drinking one of his beers and laughing while he was escorted out of the house he bought 5 years before he met her.
By the time he got back in his own house he had been cleaned out and the house was trashed.
I think here at least, temporary ROs are handed out like holloween candy but there has to be a hearing to extend them.

That’s one way to push a normal person to straight up violence.

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T.O.M.

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2023, 10:13:30 PM »
There are two kinds of orders being intertwined in this discussion.  It's understandable.  Even practicing attorneys have a tendency to use "restraining order" and "protection order" in Ohio interchangeably.  Part of that is also due to other states using the term "restraining order" the way Ohio uses "protection order," which is often depicted in the media/TV and film industry.  Let me give this a shot.

There are things called "restraining orders" that a judge issues to restrain the conduct of parties to a court case.  The most common one you may know of is a gag order a judge may issue restraining the parties from talking to the press.  There is little or no real "due process" involved in these orders, in that there is generally not a formal hearing with summons issued to the parties.  It's usually an oral motion from a party during a hearing for another purpose, or the judge may issue the order on the court's own motion.

Then, there are other "restraining orders," which are issued as part of a civil case, and very often in divorce cases.  In these situations, one party will make a motion (usually in writing) asking the court to order the other party to be restrained from doing something.  This will often be a two-part motion, with the moving party asking for an interim order pending a full hearing on the motion itself.  One that comes to mind is a party will ask for an order restraining the other party from disposing of any marital property in a divorce.  The interim order will be issued, a copy of the motion will be served on the restrained party (or that party's attorney) and the court will hold a hearing on that motion.

The third is what we call in Ohio a protection order, which is the classic "restraining order" from TV and movies that is a court order prohibiting a person from coming near a protected person.  This is a two part order as well.  The petitioner will appear at court, be placed under oath, and provide sworn testimony as to why they are requesting the order.  If the court finds that there is probable cause to believe that the petitioner is in imminent threat of harm, an interim order can be issued pending a full hearing.  Whether the interim order is issued or not, nothing happens then unless/until the papers are served on the restrained individual.  Service includes a copy of the interim order (if any) and notice of the full hearing.  At the full hearing, the respondent (the person to be restrained) is entitled to appointed counsel.  The petitioner can hire an attorney if they choose.  The parties can enter a consent agreement, in which the respondent basically agrees to have no contact with the petitioner.  If the respondent wants a trial, the burden is on the petitioner to prove by clear and convincing evidence that the respondent either has already committed a violent offense against them (like assault, domestic violence, sexual assault, etc.), or that the respondent presents an imminent and substantial risk to the physical or mental safety of the petitioner.

I have some experience with the first and third types of orders.  The first from when I was a prosecutor, the last from my time on the bench, doing some protection order hearings.  Never did divorce work, and SWMBO and I have been together since 97.  So while I've heard stories like the poor guy watching his house get emptied by his soon-to-be-ex-wife with a deputy standing by, I've got no experience and can't begin to explain that.
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Pb

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2023, 11:39:30 AM »
TOM, I appreciate the input. What do you think about US v. Rahimi?

Most of the media is presenting it as "The court says wife beaters have a right to own guns!" and not "You can't take away a right without due process."

T.O.M.

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2023, 02:54:03 PM »
I agree about the media coloring this case in terms of abusers can have guns.  Kind of like the way they took the student loan decision and instead of saying POTUS can't do it that way, spun it as SCOTUS denied help to poor students.  The media is sure showing their liberal side in how they are attacking SCOTUS right now.

On the Rahimi case, I am curious to see how the court rules.  Typically, rights cannot be restricted without due process.  Due process, at a minimum, means notice of a hearing, and an opportunity to be heard.  The question is whether the notice and opportunity to conest the protection order is sufficient to deny 2A rights.  Frankly, I can see this going either way.  Set aside the GUNZ!!!! issue, this case is more about what constitutes due process when it comes down to civil rights.  I'm sure if this was voting rights, the sides would be flipped on what it takes to restrict those rights.  Because it's GUNZ!!!!, the libs are going to vote in block against them, as they don't see firearm ownership as a civil right.  Meanwhile, some of the others may also vote that way, because a frightening large number of conservatives also see 2A as not being a real civil right.

Another side argument is whether the Feds have authority to ban possession of an item not currently in interstate commerce.  In other words, Rahim is arguing that just because a firearm was in interstate commerce at one point does not give the Feds authority over its possession for all time.  Not sure how this Court would come down on a restriction of the broad interstate commerce authority.
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JTHunter

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Re: Is there "due process" with a restraining order?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2023, 03:39:50 PM »
It is nice to get some input from somebody that has some judicial experience.
Thanks T.O.M.
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