Titanic tourist sub goes missing

[230RN]

I fail to see what observational contribution the occupants of the sub could make unless they spot a previously unnoticed shell hole. (sarcasm)

There is absolutely something beyond bragging rights you can get from travel when you're able to actually be someplace and experience a place of interest.

I'm not saying that is how I'd personally spend a quarter of a million, but pretending that pictures and videos are the same thing as going someplace consequential is small minded and sour grapes.

I think I'm insulted. (And don't give me that high school sopohomoric line about you're not insulting me, you're describing me.)  One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater.  No photo can capture that.  I  imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.

Anyhow, unless they bobbed to the surface somewhere, it looks like they're permanently lost by now with the Coast Guard admitting they cannot do anything.

[Northwoods]

One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater.  No photo can capture that.  I  imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.

The Taj Mahal is something no photo can do justice to.

[MechAg94]

I fail to see what observational contribution the occupants of the sub could make unless they spot a previously unnoticed shell hole. (sarcasm)

I think I'm insulted. (And don't give me that high school sopohomoric line about you're not insulting me, you're describing me.)  One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater.  No photo can capture that.  I  imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.

Anyhow, unless they bobbed to the surface somewhere, it looks like they're permanently lost by now with the Coast Guard admitting they cannot do anything.

I was made aware of Meteor Crater recently (again maybe).  A good reason to go back to Arizona at some point. 

[WLJ]

Experts in submersible vehicles wrote a letter warning the CEO of OceanGate that their approach could end in 'disaster' years before their vessel vanished.

The letter, obtained by the New York Times, warned that 'the current 'experimental' approach' of the company could result in problems 'from minor to catastrophic.'

It was sent by the Manned Underwater Vehicles committee of the Marine Technology Society, a 60-year-old trade group that aims to promote ocean technology and educate the public about it.

But it is unclear if any employee or Rush himself responded to the letter, and there was no further detail on why the approach was considered dangerous.

It comes after DailyMail.com revealed that OceanGate refused to put their submersible through an independent inspection process and fired a director in 2018 after he asked for more rigorous safety tests.

Bosses fired David Lochridge, who was Director of Marine operations for the Titan project, after disagreeing with his demand for more rigorous safety checks on the submersible, including 'testing to prove its integrity'.

The company also opted against having the craft 'classed', an industry-wide practice whereby independent inspectors ensure vessels meet accepted technical standards.

'He was warned': Submersible experts wrote to OceanGate's missing CEO Stockton Rush in 2018 warning company's 'experimental' approach could lead to 'catastrophic' disaster
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215855/Submersible-experts-wrote-OceanGates-missing-CEO-Stockton-Rush-2018.html

[WLJ]

More along those line on the same site.
Don't know how much of this and the above are internet exaggerations

The site said it suffered further problems in 2020 and had to be completely rebuilt after tests showed signs of 'cyclic fatigue' that reduced the hull's depth rating to 3,000 meters, which was well short of what it required to get close to the Titanic.

The vessel, built of carbon fibre and titanium was originally designed to take five people to depths of 4,000 metres (13,123 feet).

Titan sub is like a 'kit car built from Amazon parts': Observers say 'flimsy' vessel uses camping shop lights, 'off the shelf' cameras, salvaged metal pipes for ballast and a Playstation controller - with a comms team in a ship previously traded on eBay
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12214617/Titanic-sub-like-kit-car-built-Amazon-parts.html

[AZRedhawk44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-submergence_vehicle

Link above is a neat list of various DSV's and their rated dive depths.  There are a few vehicles around the planet that could reach the Titan, though none could dock with it.  Unknown if any have remote manipulators or other tools that could free it from entanglement if that is the issue.

I don't think any of them are small enough to be air transportable to be on site within the required time frame though.

My money is on some sort of catastrophic failure that ended the dive explosively and tragically.

[230RN]

AZRedhawk44 remarked,

"My money is on some sort of catastrophic failure that ended the dive explosively and tragically."

I was thinking about that yesterday and, compared to the outside pressure, the pressure inside both that vessel and the USS Thresher was essentially, an absolute vacuum.

I remembered what happened when a large TV picture tube broke, and why they were so dangerous to handle.  It doesn't just collapse, it usually throws fragments all over the place at high velocity. And that's with just a 14.7 psi pressure difference in the case of the picture tube.  Maybe that's why the Thresher's parts were scattered so widely.

Terry, 230RN

[Northwoods]

If they were caught in the Titanic wreckage most likely they would have communicated somehow by now.  Sonar ping, release of an emergency beacon, something.

Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive.  From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic.  Far too shallow to be stuck in wreckage.  If that timeframe is when something anomalous happened it would indicate likely catastrophic structural failure as the most likely scenario.

Or they *expletive deleted*ed around with Cthulhu and found out.

[MechAg94]

I had assumes many subs like that used a tether of some kind.  I guess not. 

[HankB]

Viewing panoramic vistas of mountains, an enormous meteor crater, the Taj Mahal, African wildlife in its natural habitat, the skyline of a major city . . . there are a LOT of things worth seeing in person rather than viewing pictures, and not all of them require a major risk to life and limb.

Paying a quarter million dollars to peek through a little porthole in murky water while risking your life in a Rube Goldberg submersible contraption isn't one of them.

[Jim147]

If they were caught in the Titanic wreckage most likely they would have communicated somehow by now.  Sonar ping, release of an emergency beacon, something.

Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive.  From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic.  Far too shallow to be stuck in wreckage.  If that timeframe is when something anomalous happened it would indicate likely catastrophic structural failure as the most likely scenario.

Or they *expletive deleted*ed around with Cthulhu and found out.

Yeah, every time I heard 40 some hours of air left today I thought no it has zero air left since about two hours after diving.

[Brad Johnson]

Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive.  From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic. 

If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.

Brad

[WLJ]

So we put death by CCC (Climate Change COVID) on the report then

[RoadKingLarry]

If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.

Brad

https://bluerobotics.com/learn/pressure-depth-calculator/

At 13123ft/4000m sea pressure would be 5823 psi. An implosion would have result in essentially instantaneous death for the passengers and the vessel being torn to shreds and scattered over more than a square mile of sea floor.

When the USS Thresher died my educated guess (I served on that class of submarine) is that the implosion would have taken place at a depth of less than 4000 ft. The forces from that event scattered the wreckage over more than a mile of sea floor.

[MillCreek]

Too soon? One of the reasons that Oceangate built their vehicles in Everett was to take advantage of the local knowledge in creating larger carbon fiber/composite vehicles.  The local Boeing plant pioneered construction of the 787 with the carbon fiber/composite fuselage. Oceangate hired several former Boeing workers to build the autoclave and construct the composite body sections of the submersible.  They also consulted with NASA on construction as well.

[Hawkmoon]

Viewing panoramic vistas of mountains, an enormous meteor crater, the Taj Mahal, African wildlife in its natural habitat, the skyline of a major city . . . there are a LOT of things worth seeing in person rather than viewing pictures, and not all of them require a major risk to life and limb.

Paying a quarter million dollars to peek through a little porthole in murky water while risking your life in a Rube Goldberg submersible contraption isn't one of them.

Agreed.

It is beginning to appear that there was more than a bit of corporate (or maybe individual) hubris involved.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215003/OceanGate-REFUSED-independent-inspection-missing-sub-fired-worker-raised-safety-concerns.html

OceanGate hired a British expert to help manage their safety program, then fired him when he wanted to make the thing safe.

In a blog post titled 'Why Isn't Titan Classed?', OceanGate suggested classification would take too long.

The post said: 'While classing agencies are willing to pursue the certification of new and innovative designs and ideas, they often have a multi-year approval cycle due to a lack of pre-existing standards…

'Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation.'

The company said its 'innovations' included a real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring system which is 'not currently covered by any classing agency'.

OceanGate suggested its own in-house safety protocols were sufficient. The blog concluded that 'by itself, classing is not sufficient to ensure safety'.

Sadly, it seems they were ... what's the word? Ah, yes: WRONG!

I don't really mean to make light of it. Five people being squashed under two miles of ocean isn't something to laugh about. It's fine if someone like Stockton Rush wants to build a submersible in his garage and try to dive two miles deep. If he ends up killing himself (as it appears he has done), that's his misfortune, but he knew the risks. Unfortunately, despite all the weasel words in the disclaimer the company makes the tourists sign, I'm sure that at some level the customers were of the opinion that the company wouldn't be sending the thing down if it wasn't safe.

[Northwoods]

Too soon? One of the reasons that Oceangate built their vehicles in Everett was to take advantage of the local knowledge in creating larger carbon fiber/composite vehicles.  The local Boeing plant pioneered construction of the 787 with the carbon fiber/composite fuselage. Oceangate hired several former Boeing workers to build the autoclave and construct the composite body sections of the submersible.  They also consulted with NASA on construction as well.

Beech was filament winding carbon fiber for the Premier 1 biz jet fuselage in the 90’s. 

Regardless, an inherent risk of composites is you don’t know how strong they really are until they break.  And any even seemingly minor damage dramatically reduces the ultimate strength, and such damage can be difficult to detect.  Plus moisture degrades mechanical properties over time. 

[MillCreek]

^^^Based on what I have read in the Seattle media about the Boeing 787, composites can be difficult, and even Boeing can have problems with it.

[Boomhauer]

We had carbon fiber WRAPPED air bottles in the fire service. They were service life limited despite having an inner aluminum core.

The insanity of building a completely carbon fiber submersible especially a deep diving submersible is insane.

And then they cheated out on it with possibly the most damning evidence of being too cheap to buy the properly engineered view port. Insanity and stupidity collide.

[Northwoods]

We had carbon fiber WRAPPED air bottles in the fire service. They were service life limited despite having an inner aluminum core.

The insanity of building a completely carbon fiber submersible especially a deep diving submersible is insane.

And then they cheated out on it with possibly the most damning evidence of being too cheap to buy the properly engineered view port. Insanity and stupidity collide.

My understanding is it was carbon wrapped titanium.

Otherwise, spot on.

[RoadKingLarry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9JXAF2uFU

[HankB]

Or maybe the video game controller they were using to drive the sub crapped out.

[WLJ]

But wait, there's more.

This company is looking more and more shady

A Florida couple sued the CEO of Titanic tourism company OceanGate Expeditions, accusing him of misleading them about their trip to visit the wreck and refusing to refund their $210,258 when they complained.

Marc and Sharon Hagle, who made their fortune in commercial real estate, are well known for their philanthropy and their adventurous spirit. In March 2022, they were on the fourth Blue Origin passenger space flight and became the first married couple to become space tourists.

In 2016, while on a trip to the South Pole, they decided their next adventure would be underwater. In 2017 they were announced as among the first customers for OceanGate, which was founded in 2009 by Seattle-born aviator and businessman Stockton Rush, now 61.

But they never got to take their trip, and in February this year sued Rush, accusing him of selling the adventure knowing it was not on schedule, and refusing to refund their cash.

REVEALED: Missing OceanGate CEO was sued for FRAUD by Florida couple who accused him of taking $210,000 to see Titanic wreck when he knew the vessel was not ready
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12216669/Missing-OceanGate-CEO-Stockton-Rush-sued-FRAUD-Florida-couple-paid-Titanic.html

[JTHunter]

One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater.  No photo can capture that.  I  imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.

It is !
Also, it may be much smaller. but looking down those nearly vertical walls at Royal Gorge (where bungee jumping got its start) and looking straight down to the river 1,200 feet below is pretty impressive to a 12 y.o. 

[WLJ]

Update, maybe signs of life
Note:unconfirmed at this point. I'm dubious of the source (Rolling Stone)

A Canadian Aircraft, part of the enormous search mission looking for the missing Titanic tourists, heard 'banging' at 30-minute intervals in the area the submarine disappeared.

The banging was noted in emails exchanged with the US Department of Homeland Security and seen by Rolling Stone.

Richard Garriot de Cayeux, President of The Explorers Club, confirmed in a Tuesday night social media post that 'there is cause for hope.'

In a statement he said: 'We have much greater confidence that 1) There is cause for hope, based on data from the field - we understand that likely signs of life have been detected at the site.'

'Likely signs of life have been detected': Rescue plane hunting missing Titanic submarine with five on board 'hears banging' coming every 30 minutes from near wreck site - raising hopes men are ALIVE as search enters make-or-break day
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html