Titanic tourist sub goes missing

[RocketMan]

I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat.  That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.

And another potential point of failure at depth.

[dogmush]

As far as backups go, they can take any form.  However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded.  I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it.  The design might have a lot of that covered.  And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened. 

It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.

Even if you did build some sort of internal dog system to keep the hatch closed, you'd be pretty hard pressed to pop it and get the hatch open before pressure equalized inside and outside the sub, which would happen sometime after the sub started it's newest descent.  I'd have to pull out my Damage Control formulas for the weight of seawater holding an 8.5ft in diameter hemispherical hatch closed at the surface, but off the top of my head it's more than you can reliably push with just a couple people.

I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat.  That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.

I think that was the fairing covering the vertical thrusters.  The pics of it I've seen in depth testing pretty clearly show a sealed pressure hull with no openings.

[AZRedhawk44]

I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat.  That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.

That's not a snorkel, and it's not close enough to the pressure vessel to be a snorkel.

My guess is it's a periscope.  Again, digitally linked through wireless rather than a mechanical linkage through the hull.

[lee n. field]

Who thing makes me think of this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw  (not a rick roll)

[MechAg94]

And another potential point of failure at depth.

There are already a portal/view point.  Engineering design problems to solve.  If you want to dive to 12000 feet in a sealed cylinder with no view, be my guest.  That doesn't appeal to me. 

[dogmush]

The mast at the back is almost certainly the antenna for coms with the tender.  The periscope was a Camera at the front by the hatch seam, and not on that diagram.

You can see the antenna cable going to the mast and the periscope bracket on the pic of testing with no fairings on.  THen the actual camera/periscope on the later pics.

[Ben]

Anyways, they all had it coming.

https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/06/21/the-new-republic-reminds-us-ceo-missing-in-titanic-sub-had-history-of-gop-donations-n2384721

[WLJ]

Also brings up the fact that was brought up in earlier articles the sub relies on comm ties with the mothership to navigate and it's basically lost without it.

Sub-standard: Mexican actor shares how doomed Titan submersible's batteries suddenly drained during 2022 trip to Titanic, forcing tour to end early - with communications also blacking out for two hours
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12219589/Missing-Titans-sub-battery-suddenly-DRAINED-2022-Titanic-trip-cutting-expedition-short.html

[WLJ]

Maybe crazy ideas based on the above.
They lost comms but decided to continue anyway and hit the Titanic and could be stuck or lost power and was pushed into it by the currents.

[dogmush]

Maybe crazy ideas based on the above.
They lost comms but decided to continue anyway and hit the Titanic and could be stuck or lost power and was pushed into it by the currents.

That would be remarkably stupid.

Also brings up the fact that was brought up in earlier articles the sub relies on comm ties with the mothership to navigate and it's basically lost without it.

Sub-standard: Mexican actor shares how doomed Titan submersible's batteries suddenly drained during 2022 trip to Titanic, forcing tour to end early - with communications also blacking out for two hours
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12219589/Missing-Titans-sub-battery-suddenly-DRAINED-2022-Titanic-trip-cutting-expedition-short.html

I'm not sure how else one would navigate unless you had an Inertial Nav system.  They make them small enough to fit in aircraft, so theoretically they could have installed one, but I have no idea how power hungry one is, and if the .mil has released them to civilian use.  Short of that, I'm not sure what other tech exists to navigate under water except getting range and bearing from a known location (Tender w/ GPS).I agree that 15 min between pings is ludicrously long for this application.

[WLJ]

That would be remarkably stupid.

Since when has that stopped anyone?

Pilot could have thought, "I've done this before so I know where it is" and they already had a bunch of embarrassing failed runs.  Like I said crazy idea, just something that popped into my head after reading the above

Oh and couldn't you use sonar to navigate with known points say like the Titanic? Don't think this sub was equipped with sonar though.

[WLJ]

Still got to find it.

This is the machine that could pull the sub to the surface
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64936b671babaa614a472d9b%26This%20is%20the%20machine%20that%20could%20pull%20the%20sub%20to%20the%20surface%262023-06-21T22%3A54%3A37.478Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:5c592c46-8f84-4b01-af82-74e6e891d187&pinned_post_asset_id=64936b671babaa614a472d9b&pinned_post_type=share

[WLJ]

A Titanic connection in the family

The wife of the CEO of OceanGate, who was piloting the missing Titanic tourist submersible, is descended from a wealthy New York couple who drowned on the Titanic.

Wendy Rush's husband, Stockton, is among five people inside the sub, which went missing on Sunday during a trip to visit the Titanic wreckage.

Wendy's great-great-grandparents Isidor and Ida died in the 1912 disaster.

In the 1997 James Cameron film, they were depicted lying on a bed embracing as the icy waters rose around them.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12220775/Submersible-pilots-wife-descendant-famous-Titanic-couple-died-arm-arm.html

[Hawkmoon]

I'm not sure how else one would navigate unless you had an Inertial Nav system. 

GOOGLE MAPS, of course!

:duh:

[dogmush]

Oh and couldn't you use sonar to navigate with known points say like the Titanic? Don't think this sub was equipped with sonar though.

Like a sidescan sonar?  Maybe.  The ones I've used to map harbors were kinda rough to use for navigation.  It'd be easy to pick the wrong blob to navigate to.  Since I made that first post however, I poked around and you can get a commercial grade INS for between $5k and $8k, which, if I were building a sub for open water use seems like a pretty solid investment.

[WLJ]

Like a sidescan sonar?  Maybe.  The ones I've used to map harbors were kinda rough to use for navigation.  It'd be easy to pick the wrong blob to navigate to.  Since I made that first post however, I poked around and you can get a commercial grade INS for between $5k and $8k, which, if I were building a sub for open water use seems like a pretty solid investment.

Alvin which was used to explore the Titanic in the 80s. Note the sonar. How useful it was for nav I don't know but in the the case of the Titanic it may have been aim for big blob


https://www.bluebird-electric.net/submarines/alvin_dsv_submersible_woods_hole_oceongraphic_institution_us_navy.htm

[Ben]

Sidescan for navigation enhancement is still prototypical and pretty complex.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2306/2306.06822.pdf

[Hawkmoon]

Commentary from a man who has been there and done that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIbtKU6RAxg

[HeroHog]

When I was in, in 76, the NR-1 was the new hot *expletive deleted*it. It was super secret and was moored right next to us at the New London/Groton, CT Nuke sub base. They floated a tarp out next to the pier and something surfaced under it. They unzipped a flap in the tarp and tied up then disembarked. All the while, armed US Marines and UDT Divers guarded the sub and the pier with "shoot to kill" orders!
We later went out, met a tug who transferred the end of a line to us and left. We tied off the line to the stern cleats and towed the line to Holy Loch, Scotland, never once seeing the NR-1 attached to the other end of the line. We COULD, however, hear the sub communicating with our ship via some strange, encrypted, acoustic system that you could hear through the hill of the ship.
Imagine my surprise at seeing the NR-1 on full display, with schematics, in a National Graphic article in a Dr's office a decade or 3 later!
The USS Nautilus was across the pier from us when she was brought in for decommissioning.

[230RN]

I hope they brought toilet paper.

Not a joke.  Just pointing out the umentionable necessities for that long a period.  We talk about CO₂ scrubbing and food supplies and air supplies, but nobody's mentioned the necessary bodily functions for that long a period.

For that reason, among many others, I hope it was a sudden catastrophic merciful end to the mission on Sunday.

[WLJ]

Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's was/is banging noise then the next says it was just a noise or something or even if it occurred once, twice, or whatever.

Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.

[Boomhauer]

Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's a banging noise then the next says it was just a nois or something.

Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.

I place almost zero stock in news reports of such occurrences. I’m going to concur in it imploded Sunday and going to postulate that the cheaped out on window is what did it. Utter stupidity to cheap out on such a vital aspect of the design.

[WLJ]

I hope they brought toilet paper.

Not a joke.  Just pointing out the umentionable necessities for that long a period.  We talk about CO₂ scrubbing and food supplies and air supplies, but nobody's mentioned the necessary bodily functions for that long a period.

For that reason, among many others, I hope it was a sudden catastrophic merciful end to the mission on Sunday.

People may laugh but that is a very serous concern.
Same for space flight. People laugh but it's a very serious subject and must be dealt with.

[Ben]

Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's was/is banging noise then the next says it was just a noise or something or even if it occurred once, twice, or whatever.

Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.

That "30 minutes" looks to be our trusty news services. The USCG only confirmed that sounds were heard. Refer to what BobR said about sounds in the ocean.

[230RN]

The vagary about the banging reminds me of the Mysterious Morse Code-like signals picked up in the movie "On The Beach" (1959).  Even knowing the ending, I still enjoy that movie when it shows up on the Old TV Channels.

Spoiler Alert:

After much effort and agony searching for the incomprehensible "Not-Morse" signals in a San Francisco power plant...

"A crew member discovers the power source is still running on automatic control. Nearby, a telegraph key has become entangled in a window shade's pull cord and a half-full Coca-Cola bottle, and is being randomly pulled by an ocean breeze, causing the radio signals." (Wiki)

That's not the actual dramatic ending of the movie, so I don't feel bad spoiling that part of it.

But this "banging" "sound" reminded me of it... a variable ocean current swinging an anchor against a sunken hull?  A ringing buoy in otherwise pretty calm water... perhaps only disturbed by passing wakes?

                   

I would bet we find out what the "banging" is/was before the mystery of the submarine is solved.

Terry, 230RN