Author Topic: How was your flight?  (Read 6019 times)

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,963
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2024, 02:11:26 PM »
^^

That is untrue, at least in the DOD.  The manual gives you procedures and safety warnings, but you are also expected to know the overall best practices.  If the TM is wrong, you are to question it, on the spot, with your superiors, and submit a form to correct it with the publishing agency.  The form is in the back of every TM, and online.

The group I learned from are retirees from the same private sector contractor. It's entirely possible their info is either out of date or isolated to a particular organization, department, or management structure.

Brad
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 03:06:15 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,141
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2024, 02:29:40 PM »
That said: If you are too retarded to realize you need to replace the bolts that you took out when opened the plug door, you may just be too retarded to work on aircraft at all.  Boeing may want to take a hard look at their workforce.

The problem is that the person/people who removed/opened the door/plug probably weren't the people who replaced/closed it. Boeing works multiple shifts. If the thing was opened up by the first shift, the necessary repair work done by the second shift, and the closure performed by the third shift -- the person/people putting the thing back in wouldn't necessarily know what was involved in removing/opening it. This is almost certainly why the operation manual for "replacing" the door/plug covers installing the four retainer bolts. The mystery is why the SOP for "closing" the door/plug omitted that critical step.

Sadly, the only difference between "open" and "remove" is that when the door/plug is "opened" it is left hanging from the bottom hinges, whereas when it is "removed" it's taken off the hinges and set aside. Other than that, it's the same operation.

Even more sad: those four bolts are probably grade 25 Unobtanium bolts with a unique Boeing part number and specifation, and subject to multiple inspections and certifications. A cadmium plated grade 5 nut and bolt from Ace Hardware could have prevented this from happening.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Cliffh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2024, 04:28:04 PM »
A question:

What is (normally) done with fasteners, such as nuts & bolts, when they're removed?  Are they all tossed into a coffee can, do they have specific containers for each nut/bolt, or ????

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,497
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2024, 04:58:19 PM »
Do they typically have to check off and sign/initial procedure steps as operations are done?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,141
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2024, 08:05:32 PM »
Do they typically have to check off and sign/initial procedure steps as operations are done?

Not sure, but probably. Which is why the fact that the "Replace four locking bolts" step NOT being in the procedure for closing the door/plug is so important.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,534
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #105 on: February 07, 2024, 08:34:26 PM »
The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.


sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,251
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #106 on: February 07, 2024, 09:59:30 PM »
The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.



Cotter pins are notoriously installed incorrectly.  Apparently that's a skill few machinists at Boeing are able to master.  dogmush's commentary on the IQ range of the machinists comes to mind.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,141
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #107 on: February 07, 2024, 11:38:42 PM »
The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.

I'm not making excuses for Boeing. The incident was a cluster__, and the subsequent discovery of other aircraft with bolts loose isn't encouraging. BUT ... from what I've seen watching videos and reading articles by aircraft industry experts, the bolts found loose in other aircraft weren't those four retaining bolts, they were other bolts in or near the door/plug opening.

The question I haven't seen answered is whether the four retaining bolts on the incident aircraft were installed by Spirit and subsequently removed at Boeing when the door/plug was removed (sorry -- "opened") to repair something unrelated, or if they were missed when Spirit built the fuselage. As to the other aircraft -- the loose bolts I've seen pointed out weren't related to holding the door/plug in place so, if they were loose, they were probably loose when the fuselages came from Spirit, and the crews at Boeing would have had no reason or need to tinker with them.

If I understand it correctly, Spirit was originally part of Boeing and was spun off into a separate entity some years ago. It leaves me wondering how much or how little control Boeing has over their former division.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 10:28:44 AM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,534
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2024, 06:57:16 AM »
I've seen reports that the plug door retaining bolts, specifically,  were loose on other aircraft.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,141
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2024, 10:33:28 AM »
I've seen reports that the plug door retaining bolts, specifically,  were loose on other aircraft.

If that's the case, what does "loose" mean and does it matter?

Those four bolts are simple blocks to prevent the door/plug from moving up. As long as they are in place, the piece can't move. It's not like those bolts need to be torqued to any particular spec, or even torqued at all. If the nuts are run on finger-tight and the cotter pin is installed, the nut can't come off, the bolt can't fall out of the hole, and the door/plug can't move.

So does "loose" mean "not tight," or does "loose" mean the cotter pin wasn't present and the nuts were backing off the bolts?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,534
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2024, 04:14:26 PM »
If that's the case, what does "loose" mean and does it matter?

Those four bolts are simple blocks to prevent the door/plug from moving up. As long as they are in place, the piece can't move. It's not like those bolts need to be torqued to any particular spec, or even torqued at all. If the nuts are run on finger-tight and the cotter pin is installed, the nut can't come off, the bolt can't fall out of the hole, and the door/plug can't move.

So does "loose" mean "not tight," or does "loose" mean the cotter pin wasn't present and the nuts were backing off the bolts?

That is not a true statement.  Cotter retained nuts still have a torque spec, because you can't have the nut rattling around and vibrating against the cotter pin.  That will damage, and eventually cut the cotter pin and allow the nut to back off.  "Loose" means not tightened to spec, with or without a cotter pin.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,534
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2024, 02:44:01 PM »
And now undertorqued bolts in a different subsystem.

https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4458220-faa-says-737-max-operator-discovered-loose-bolts-in-rudder-control-system-on-plane/amp/

I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'll look at, and avoid, 737's when buying tickets.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,141
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2024, 08:14:05 PM »

I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'll look at, and avoid, 737's when buying tickets.

An earlier article cited a retired senior executive from Boeing who flat-out stated that he won't fly on a 737.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,241
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2024, 09:22:08 PM »
One can really see the quality of union labor in effect here.
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

JTHunter

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,820
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2024, 10:30:06 PM »
One can really see the quality of union labor in effect here.

More likely, it was a failure of "quality control" and those jobs are usually some (lower) level of "management".
Having been a "QC" technician for most of my career, I have frequently seen how management cuts corners to get product "out the door".
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,314
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2024, 06:20:00 PM »
Maggots
Yeah maggots

Quote
An hour into a Delta flight from Amsterdam to Detroit, the plane had to turn around after maggots reportedly fell from an overhead cabin onto economy passengers.

Delta Flight DL133 returned to Schiphol Tuesday "after a suitcase containing rotten fish in the overhead bin broke open and maggots began to fall on the unsuspecting passengers," the Daily Mail reported.

Once the airplane landed, passengers exited, the cabin was cleaned and the suitcase involved was put in a bag to be burned.

Had to smell during check in

Delta flight from Amsterdam to Detroit turned around after maggots fall on passengers: report
https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/delta-flight-amsterdam-detroit-turned-maggots-fall-passengers-report
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,497
Re: How was your flight?
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2024, 11:24:28 PM »
Don't they usually keep rotten fish in cans?

What the hell is rotten fish doing in a suitcase?  What else is in the suitcase (besides maggots)?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge