How was your flight?

[Brad Johnson]

^^

That is untrue, at least in the DOD.  The manual gives you procedures and safety warnings, but you are also expected to know the overall best practices.  If the TM is wrong, you are to question it, on the spot, with your superiors, and submit a form to correct it with the publishing agency.  The form is in the back of every TM, and online.

The group I learned from are retirees from the same private sector contractor. It's entirely possible their info is either out of date or isolated to a particular organization, department, or management structure.

Brad

[Hawkmoon]

That said: If you are too retarded to realize you need to replace the bolts that you took out when opened the plug door, you may just be too retarded to work on aircraft at all.  Boeing may want to take a hard look at their workforce.

The problem is that the person/people who removed/opened the door/plug probably weren't the people who replaced/closed it. Boeing works multiple shifts. If the thing was opened up by the first shift, the necessary repair work done by the second shift, and the closure performed by the third shift -- the person/people putting the thing back in wouldn't necessarily know what was involved in removing/opening it. This is almost certainly why the operation manual for "replacing" the door/plug covers installing the four retainer bolts. The mystery is why the SOP for "closing" the door/plug omitted that critical step.

Sadly, the only difference between "open" and "remove" is that when the door/plug is "opened" it is left hanging from the bottom hinges, whereas when it is "removed" it's taken off the hinges and set aside. Other than that, it's the same operation.

Even more sad: those four bolts are probably grade 25 Unobtanium bolts with a unique Boeing part number and specifation, and subject to multiple inspections and certifications. A cadmium plated grade 5 nut and bolt from Ace Hardware could have prevented this from happening.

[Cliffh]

A question:

What is (normally) done with fasteners, such as nuts & bolts, when they're removed?  Are they all tossed into a coffee can, do they have specific containers for each nut/bolt, or ?

[MechAg94]

Do they typically have to check off and sign/initial procedure steps as operations are done?

[Hawkmoon]

Do they typically have to check off and sign/initial procedure steps as operations are done?

Not sure, but probably. Which is why the fact that the "Replace four locking bolts" step NOT being in the procedure for closing the door/plug is so important.

[dogmush]

The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.

[Northwoods]

The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.

Cotter pins are notoriously installed incorrectly.  Apparently that's a skill few machinists at Boeing are able to master.  dogmush's commentary on the IQ range of the machinists comes to mind.

[Hawkmoon]

The concentration on the step that may have been missing from the "close" procedure does not explain the multiple aircraft over multiple airlines that have discovered these bolts loose in inspections since this accident.

They knew enough to install the bolts, but not the cutter pins?

There's also the fact that when you pull the door closed and down, there's big ass holes in the hinge and the roller track,  at eye level.

And the fact that the damn thing is spring loaded.  How many spring loaded items are there on an aircraft that don't have a latch, bolt, toggle or something to secure them?  Zero.

I'm not making excuses for Boeing. The incident was a cluster__, and the subsequent discovery of other aircraft with bolts loose isn't encouraging. BUT ... from what I've seen watching videos and reading articles by aircraft industry experts, the bolts found loose in other aircraft weren't those four retaining bolts, they were other bolts in or near the door/plug opening.

The question I haven't seen answered is whether the four retaining bolts on the incident aircraft were installed by Spirit and subsequently removed at Boeing when the door/plug was removed (sorry -- "opened") to repair something unrelated, or if they were missed when Spirit built the fuselage. As to the other aircraft -- the loose bolts I've seen pointed out weren't related to holding the door/plug in place so, if they were loose, they were probably loose when the fuselages came from Spirit, and the crews at Boeing would have had no reason or need to tinker with them.

If I understand it correctly, Spirit was originally part of Boeing and was spun off into a separate entity some years ago. It leaves me wondering how much or how little control Boeing has over their former division.

[dogmush]

I've seen reports that the plug door retaining bolts, specifically,  were loose on other aircraft.

[Hawkmoon]

I've seen reports that the plug door retaining bolts, specifically,  were loose on other aircraft.

If that's the case, what does "loose" mean and does it matter?

Those four bolts are simple blocks to prevent the door/plug from moving up. As long as they are in place, the piece can't move. It's not like those bolts need to be torqued to any particular spec, or even torqued at all. If the nuts are run on finger-tight and the cotter pin is installed, the nut can't come off, the bolt can't fall out of the hole, and the door/plug can't move.

So does "loose" mean "not tight," or does "loose" mean the cotter pin wasn't present and the nuts were backing off the bolts?

[dogmush]

If that's the case, what does "loose" mean and does it matter?

Those four bolts are simple blocks to prevent the door/plug from moving up. As long as they are in place, the piece can't move. It's not like those bolts need to be torqued to any particular spec, or even torqued at all. If the nuts are run on finger-tight and the cotter pin is installed, the nut can't come off, the bolt can't fall out of the hole, and the door/plug can't move.

So does "loose" mean "not tight," or does "loose" mean the cotter pin wasn't present and the nuts were backing off the bolts?

That is not a true statement.  Cotter retained nuts still have a torque spec, because you can't have the nut rattling around and vibrating against the cotter pin.  That will damage, and eventually cut the cotter pin and allow the nut to back off.  "Loose" means not tightened to spec, with or without a cotter pin.

[dogmush]

And now undertorqued bolts in a different subsystem.

https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4458220-faa-says-737-max-operator-discovered-loose-bolts-in-rudder-control-system-on-plane/amp/

I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'll look at, and avoid, 737's when buying tickets.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'll look at, and avoid, 737's when buying tickets.

An earlier article cited a retired senior executive from Boeing who flat-out stated that he won't fly on a 737.

[Boomhauer]

One can really see the quality of union labor in effect here.

[JTHunter]

One can really see the quality of union labor in effect here.

More likely, it was a failure of "quality control" and those jobs are usually some (lower) level of "management".
Having been a "QC" technician for most of my career, I have frequently seen how management cuts corners to get product "out the door".

[WLJ]

Maggots
Yeah maggots

An hour into a Delta flight from Amsterdam to Detroit, the plane had to turn around after maggots reportedly fell from an overhead cabin onto economy passengers.

Delta Flight DL133 returned to Schiphol Tuesday "after a suitcase containing rotten fish in the overhead bin broke open and maggots began to fall on the unsuspecting passengers," the Daily Mail reported.

Once the airplane landed, passengers exited, the cabin was cleaned and the suitcase involved was put in a bag to be burned.

Had to smell during check in

Delta flight from Amsterdam to Detroit turned around after maggots fall on passengers: report
https://www.foxbusiness.com/fox-news-travel/delta-flight-amsterdam-detroit-turned-maggots-fall-passengers-report

[MechAg94]

Don't they usually keep rotten fish in cans?

What the hell is rotten fish doing in a suitcase?  What else is in the suitcase (besides maggots)?

[WLJ]

Couple file a $1B, yes that's a B, lawsuit over the door blowout saying even the sounds of planes flying overhead trigger flashbacks.

Two months on, Rinker says he now finds himself triggered by sounds of planes flying above and wants to claim punitive damages for systemic risks.

'There has been a crazy onslaught of information. Of course, we wanted to learn about ... it was just a lot of stuff. Where we live, we hear a lot of plane sounds and jet sounds, so that kind of triggers hearing that sound again. And no, we have not been on a plane since. I'm not sure when that will happen again.'

Portland couple aboard Alaska flight sue airline and Boeing for $1 BILLION after door blew off plane midflight - as they say they think about near-death experience 'almost daily' and are 'triggered' by noises from flights that fly over their home
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13150511/Portland-couple-aboard-Alaska-flight-suing-airline-BILLION-door-blew-off.html

[K Frame]

Based just on look alone, I'm betting he's a "Bernie Sanders should be president because then everything would be free" minion.

[WLJ]

Based just on look alone, I'm betting he's a "Bernie Sanders should be president because then everything would be free" minion.

Someone should fly plane trailing a Trump banner around their house for a couple of hours. 

[Hawkmoon]

Someone should fly plane trailing a Trump banner around their house for a couple of hours. 

Yeah -- a 737 Max 9, with the banner trailing out of the door plug opening.

[Ben]

"Triggered". 

Someone should sue THEM for a billion dollars for using that stupid word. What a weak society we're becoming.

[WLJ]

Remember that Pakistani flight back in 2020 that was coming in too hot with the landing gear retracted hitting the runway scraping along the runway on it's engines that then got back into the air and on the go around the damage to to the engines finally caused the engines to fail causing the plane to crash into a residential area?

Well the final report came and holy cow what a CLUSTER __ in the cockpit. 
One that stood out to me was the pilot hitting thrust reversal 7ft ft off the runway with the gear retracted!
They had the gear down at one point during the approach but for some unknown reason retracted them with both the Cap and Co completely ignoring all warnings in the cockpit.

This video is long and very detailed.

Pakistan International Airlines #8303 Shocking Final Report!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBxjK70yt0&t=669s

[WLJ]

Hearing the attitude of both the Cap and Co and their history of hot dogging I'm reminded of this line from Top Gun
"Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash!"

[Boomhauer]

Remember that Pakistani flight back in 2020 that was coming in too hot with the landing gear retracted hitting the runway scraping along the runway on it's engines that then got back into the air and on the go around the damage to to the engines finally caused the engines to fail causing the plane to crash into a residential area?

Well the final report came and holy cow what a CLUSTER __ in the cockpit. 
One that stood out to me was the pilot hitting thrust reversal 7ft ft off the runway with the gear retracted!
They had the gear down at one point during the approach but for some unknown reason retracted them with both the Cap and Co completely ignoring all warnings in the cockpit.

This video is long and very detailed.

Pakistan International Airlines #8303 Shocking Final Report!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBxjK70yt0&t=669s

Third world denizens doing third world *expletive deleted*it…