Author Topic: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe  (Read 9643 times)

WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2023, 04:38:13 PM »
1 - User code, out of the box it's usually something simple like 123456, is overwritten by the user IF they chose to change it.
2 - Override code to open safe if user forgets their chosen code*, is hard coded cannot be changed by the user. Provided to the user for safe keeping and kept on file by the manufacturer.

* Or the feds want to open the safe.  :P

« Last Edit: September 06, 2023, 04:52:47 PM by WLJ »
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2023, 04:54:34 PM »
The Securam manual (I don't know if the safe in question has a Securam lock):

https://securamsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/B22-ProLogic-Smart-Safe-Lock-Operation-Instructions-EC-1701A-B22-II-rev_doc220702.pdf

Quote
The default codes are as follows:

 Super Code (ID00) is 111111

 Manager Code (ID01) is 123456

*Note: In many cases, the Super Code (ID00) is changed from default and maintained by the
safe manufacturer as a reset code for your security.
"... and now I want to hand it over to the president of Ukraine who has as much courage as he has determination.  Ladies and gentlemen, President Putin."
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cordex

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2023, 04:55:37 PM »
What value is a safe with a compromised code, to someone who has been subject to a warrant by the feds?
If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in.  Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.

Make the feds earn whatever's in the safe.  Do you really want a safe after the FBI has the code to it?
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.

Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2023, 05:03:21 PM »
Slight thread drift...
When we bought the 2013 Harley in July the set up guy was going over all the features including the 4 digit pass code in case you lose your keyless ignition fob. He had me pick a random 4 digit code to enter into my bike. The guy got a funny look on his face when I gave it to him and asked me how I came up with that particular code. Turns out I had randomly came up with their "shop code" that they use in all of the dealerships  bikes.
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WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2023, 05:11:38 PM »
If the feds want into a safe for which they have a warrant, they will get into it whether they are given access or they have to break in.  Once they have physical access to the safe it is strictly a matter of time and cost.
I don't have any illusions that any safe I will ever own is capable of keeping the FBI out - with or without a code to it.

Again, not trying to make either Liberty or the feds out to be good guys here, just pointing out that if the contents of his safe were covered by the warrant, the feds were going to get it one way or another.

Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.
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WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2023, 05:14:45 PM »
Slight thread drift...
When we bought the 2013 Harley in July the set up guy was going over all the features including the 4 digit pass code in case you lose your keyless ignition fob. He had me pick a random 4 digit code to enter into my bike. The guy got a funny look on his face when I gave it to him and asked me how I came up with that particular code. Turns out I had randomly came up with their "shop code" that they use in all of the dealerships  bikes.

Friend of mine just for the heck of it when he was on a car lot would try the same code on cars with key pad entry. Every once in awhile one would open.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
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Ben

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2023, 05:20:20 PM »
Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.

Even higher end safes. I saw some youtubz video years ago of a safe company showing how easy it was to get into "the other guy's safe" and I recall they were the higher end of brand names. With a big enough lever, you can move the world.  =)
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2023, 05:29:34 PM »
I know Liberty is trying to cover their ass and place nice with both sides by specifying a warrant's presence, but the warrant's authority ended at the accused's home and contents thereof. The code is property of Liberty and resides in their possession, distinct and unique from the owner, his real property, or his residence. Liberty should not have divulged the code until presented with a warrant or court order naming them as the so-ordered party and dictating release of code for that specific safe.

Brad

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WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2023, 05:34:14 PM »
LS: Liberty safes, how may we help you?
FBI: This is the FBI, we need the code to one of your safes
LS: We can't give that out.
FBI: Next phone call will be from the IRS
LS: The code is 54271
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
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HankB

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2023, 07:34:55 PM »
Most home type safes are made with very thin metal, surprisingly easy to cut though with the right tools. If anything you just made them work a few more minutes.
More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")

Here's one company's take on the subject:  https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/

(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2023, 07:40:37 PM »
More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")

Here's one company's take on the subject:  https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/

(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)

"Residential security container" has been the proper and accurate nomenclature for what we typically know as  "gun safes" for decades.
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WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2023, 09:27:33 PM »
Here's the Babylon Bee

Weird: Liberty Safe Dials Revealed To Only Turn Left
https://babylonbee.com/news/weird-liberty-safe-dials-revealed-to-only-turn-left

Quote
At publishing time, the company had announced they would now be offering a free FBI raid with each safe purchase.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2023, 09:42:51 PM »
More home-type "gun safes" are now being referred to by professionals as "residential security containers" in order to distinguish them from the safes used in places like high-end jewelry stores. (Of course, the people selling these still call them "safes.")

Here's one company's take on the subject:  https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/do-you-really-need-a-gun-safe/

(Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge or experience with this company, I found it in a brief google search. That's it.)

Looks like they're trying to cash in on Liberty's troubles:

https://twitter.com/SecureItStorage/status/1699506045716992055
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K Frame

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2023, 06:58:10 AM »
Wow. Just freaking wow.

I've got a spin dial Liberty, but is that even secure or do they put a special "manufacturer's code" in those, as well?
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K Frame

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2023, 06:59:58 AM »
"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"

A warrant IS a court order.

That's why they're signed by a judge.
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K Frame

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2023, 07:05:43 AM »
Friend of mine just for the heck of it when he was on a car lot would try the same code on cars with key pad entry. Every once in awhile one would open.

I recall hearing that back in the 1960s or early 1970s it was revealed that one of the major car companies had something like SIX key way patterns for all of their cars, and those key way patterns spanned multiple model years.

In other words, if you had a key, you had a 1 in 6 chance of getting into one of their cars.

Apparently it came to light when auto theft really ratcheted up in the 1970s.
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K Frame

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2023, 07:07:31 AM »
Technically virtually all of the gun "safes" now on the consumer market are not safes.

They're security cabinets.

It has to do with the metal thickness.
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cordex

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2023, 07:08:59 AM »
I've got a spin dial Liberty, but is that even secure or do they put a special "manufacturer's code" in those, as well?
I’m sure they record the initial combination. Have you ever changed it?
"At the very least make them get a court order. Why make it wasy?"

A warrant IS a court order.

That's why they're signed by a judge.
I haven’t seen the warrant in this case, but typically they are very specific about what can be taken and from where. It may well have authorized them to get into the safe and obtain the contents, but I highly doubt the original warrant also compelled the safe manufacturer to provide the combination. That would almost certainly have required an additional order. They probably could have gotten it, but Liberty didn’t bother to make them.

HankB

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2023, 07:30:16 AM »
Technically virtually all of the gun "safes" now on the consumer market are not safes.

They're security cabinets.

It has to do with the metal thickness.
And if LEOs serving a warrant don't have the combination or security code, they'll haul out a Sawzall, Jaws of Life, or other tools to force it open - I bet they'll get in pretty quick.

And whether they find "contraband" or not, it won't do the safe security cabinet any good.  (And if it's a genuine, honest to goodness safe . . . they'll still force it open - it may just take a little longer.)
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dogmush

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2023, 07:45:19 AM »
I think the really telling part of this story is how far the FBI has fallen in the public esteem.  I suspect 10 or 15 years ago the vast majority of gun owners, even if unhappy with the circumstances, would have acknowledged that giving the code to the FBI when they had a warrant (at least for the house.  I wonder if the contents of safes were covered too.  Aren't warrants supposed to be pretty specific?).  The Fudds running Liberty Safe probably thought so.  It's like gun companies that still think the NRA represents the wishes of the "Gun Community".  Liberty is probably shocked at the disregard for Federal Law Enforcement among their customer base. 

They do seem to be attempting to change their policies in response to their customer's concern though: https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680?s=20

TL:DR: Going forward, you can fill out a form requesting them to delete your factory code from their database and assume the risk you might get locked out, and they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE.


I have a Liberty Safe with an S&G dial, and I'll probably ask them to lose the combo, just on GPs.

WLJ

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2023, 08:16:33 AM »
I’m sure they record the initial combination. Have you ever changed it?I haven’t seen the warrant in this case, but typically they are very specific about what can be taken and from where. It may well have authorized them to get into the safe and obtain the contents, but I highly doubt the original warrant also compelled the safe manufacturer to provide the combination. That would almost certainly have required an additional order. They probably could have gotten it, but Liberty didn’t bother to make them.

That's the question I have, if they a have warrant to enter and search the house would that by default include locked items in the house? Would that included a locked drawer? If so is there a line drawn between a locked drawer and a "safe"? if so where is it? If the warrant doesn't included locked items do they have to get a warrant for each and every one?

And another just popped into my head
Before we crucify Liberty here what exactly was Liberty told by the FBI before they gave out the code?
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Ben

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2023, 08:26:41 AM »
They do seem to be attempting to change their policies in response to their customer's concern though: https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680?s=20

TL:DR: Going forward, you can fill out a form requesting them to delete your factory code from their database and assume the risk you might get locked out, and they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE.

Well, I'll give them credit for stepping up to make things right. This is the way it should be - customer choice, and customer responsibility if the combo is lost. And only complying when they are named in a warrant/subpoena/court order (IANAL and don't know all the differences regarding obligations). I hope other safe manufacturers follow suit.
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cordex

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2023, 08:44:54 AM »
That's the question I have, if they a have warrant to enter and search the house would that by default include locked items in the house? Would that included a locked drawer? If so is there a line drawn between a locked drawer and a "safe"? if so where is it? If the warrant doesn't included locked items do they have to get a warrant for each and every one?
Without seeing the actual warrant it's hard to say for certain, but I believe the way it works is that typically a warrant would be for a location and for the items expected to be found at that location.  The item specification can be very broad or it can be very specific.  For instance, the warrant might cover all computer equipment and storage without detailing every single laptop and USB device that might be found ("The items to be seized include, but are not limited to, all electronic devices capable of storing, processing, or transmitting data, including desktop computers, laptops, tablets, smartphones, external hard drives, USB drives, SD cards, CD-ROMs, DVDs, and any other form of computer storage equipment."), or it might be for a specific model of bulldozer with a particular serial number.

They would be authorized to search locked rooms and containers on the named premises which could contain the items they are looking for.  So if they're looking specifically for a 25 ton bulldozer they probably wouldn't be allowed to break into a typical gun safe, but they might be allowed to break into a locked barn.  If they're looking for a broader of items which could conceivably be contained in a safe or locked room then they'd be allowed to obtain access to those.  If the owner refuses to provide keys and combinations they can break into them.


MechAg94

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Re: Liberty Safes Gives FBI Access Code to Customer's Safe
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2023, 08:46:27 AM »
Quote
they will now require a subpoena compelling them to release a code to LE
Isn't a subpoena just issued by the prosecutor? 
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