Author Topic: It's getting sporty in south Texas  (Read 1533 times)

zxcvbob

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It's getting sporty in south Texas
« on: January 12, 2024, 08:27:04 PM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-blocks-federal-border-agents-processing-migrants-eagle-pass-shelby-park/

I don't see this ending well.  Biden will probably federalize the Texas National Guard to end it peacefully.  Maybe send them to BFE or Minot or something as punishment. (punish the frontline soldiers rather than the CiC)  I'm surprised Abbott didn't foresee that and use the Texas State Guard instead of the NG; I don't think they can be federalized (y'all can correct me if I'm wrong), although they are probably not as well trained.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2024, 08:45:03 PM »
Hmmm ...

From the article:

Quote
Last month, Abbott signed a law known as SB4 that would allow Texas law enforcement officials to arrest, jail and prosecute migrants on state criminal charges of entering the country illegally. The law, which criminalizes an action already illegal at the federal level, is being challenged in federal court by the Justice Department and civil rights groups. It is set to take effect in March.

Seems to me that a lot of federal laws criminalize things that are already criminal at the state level. More to the point -- so what? They are different laws, under different jurisdictions. It's NOT double jeopardy to charge someone under both federal and state law for the same offense. In fact, the Buffalo market shooter, who has already been convicted and sentenced under state law, is currently facing trial in federal court over the same shooting spree. "The media" haven't raised any objections to that.
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Blakenzy

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2024, 09:59:32 PM »
Well at some point someone has to do something. The driver is not at the wheel on this bus.
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Pb

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2024, 09:59:58 AM »
I thought that the Supreme Court banned states from making immigration laws... Is that the case, or am I misremembering?

Ron

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2024, 10:44:11 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-blocks-federal-border-agents-processing-migrants-eagle-pass-shelby-park/

I don't see this ending well.  Biden will probably federalize the Texas National Guard to end it peacefully.  Maybe send them to BFE or Minot or something as punishment. (punish the frontline soldiers rather than the CiC)  I'm surprised Abbott didn't foresee that and use the Texas State Guard instead of the NG; I don't think they can be federalized (y'all can correct me if I'm wrong), although they are probably not as well trained.
Maybe Abbott did foresee that probable outcome. He's not stupid. While everyone enjoys him sending illegals into blue cities it's not really changing anything, it is in many ways just facilitating the invasion.

Right, Left, at this point the differences appear to me to be on the margins, while the trajectory is not only unchanged but picking up speed. 

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griz

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2024, 11:04:22 AM »
I thought that the Supreme Court banned states from making immigration laws... Is that the case, or am I misremembering?

I guess that's what it comes down to.  At the state level they want to keep them out, and at the federal level they want to help them get in.  I don't know what the SCOTUS said, but it sounds as if the litigants will be back for round 2.
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Blakenzy

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2024, 11:09:24 AM »
What has to be made clear is what specific laws, if any,  the federal government and it's agents are breaking while facilitating a massive uncontrolled entry of unidentified foreign nationals. Then action must be taken. I don't think that any authority can maintain said authority in the face of overt and intentional dereliction of duty.
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Angel Eyes

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2024, 08:21:18 PM »
Abbott throws down the gauntlet:

https://twitter.com/GregAbbott_TX/status/1750235544951349275

Gov. Stitt of Oklahoma:  "Oklahoma stands with Texas"

https://twitter.com/GovStitt/status/1750251885783879831
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dogmush

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2024, 08:42:42 PM »
What has to be made clear is what specific laws, if any,  the federal government and it's agents are breaking while facilitating a massive uncontrolled entry of unidentified foreign nationals. Then action must be taken. I don't think that any authority can maintain said authority in the face of overt and intentional dereliction of duty.

At minimum it is illegal for anyone to cross the border except at a designated entry point. By encouraging and facilitating people crossing outside the Ports of Entry, CBP is breaking the law.

bedlamite

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2024, 12:26:49 AM »
https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/court-allows-border-patrol-to-cut-texas-razor-wire-along-rio-grande/

Quote
Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, and Brett Kavanaugh – indicated that they would have denied the Biden administration’s request and allowed the lower court’s order to remain in place.
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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2024, 08:06:10 AM »
I freely admit I don't know much about this part of our constitution. Reading Abbott's letter, it sounds like he's correct, and that Biden taking over the Texas NG would be unconstitutional. In fact on the face of it (again not being familiar with this part of the constitution), it sounds not only unconstitutional, but as something serious enough to be a prelude to civil war. Especially when you hear "Oklahoma stands with Texas".

Anyone here know enough about this part of the constitution to post an executive summary?

EDIT: Related, I saw an article with photos yesterday that showed one of the concertina wire blockades was set up literally 200 yards from a Federal designated entry point. People were still standing by the wire trying to figure a way through rather than walking to the designated entry point. If they are legitimate "asylum seekers", why are they avoiding the entry point that's right damn there?
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HankB

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2024, 08:10:15 AM »
As I understand it, the State of Texas took over a locally owned park - a park that was NOT Federal land. So the question is - constitutionally, does the Federal government have the legitimate legal power to appropriate State owned and controlled land? Without even going through the eminent domain process?

Does the State have the power and authority to control/prevent access to State owned/controlled land?

If there's a national security concern, will tbe Feds argue that free and unfettered access to the USA by swarms of unvetted illegal aliens is essential to US national security?

As far as the NG being Federalized, there was a case back in, IIRC, 1990 (Perpich vs DOD or something like that) in which the Feds wanted to send the Minnesota National Guard to Central America for something or other. Minnesota governor Rudy Perpich made the argument that the Mn NG was a state militia, subject to his orders, and he didn't want them in Central America.  SCOTUS ruled that since the Mn NG was funded by the Feds, they WEREN'T the state militia. So they went to Central America over Perpich's objections.
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dogmush

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2024, 08:33:52 AM »
On the NG thing, yeah, it's USC Title 10 that allows the various state NG's to be called up to federal service and sent places .  (FWIW, Title 32 covers the Governor sending them to do state things).

The sticky wicket is that Title 10 orders make them part of the federal military and inelegible to do military stuff domestically.  (That's why it's always the NG and not the Reserves and/or Active Military that you see post disaster and stuff)  Title 32 orders would let them be used in CONUS, but need to come from Abbot, not the fed.gov.  I suppose that Biden could come up with some BS mission that needs those units either in Europe, or even just over at Ft. Hood and send them there under Title 10, but then the question might become how many would go?

Blakenzy

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2024, 08:37:33 AM »
Quote
As far as the NG being Federalized, there was a case back in, IIRC, 1990 (Perpich vs DOD or something like that) in which the Feds wanted to send the Minnesota National Guard to Central America for something or other. Minnesota governor Rudy Perpich made the argument that the Mn NG was a state militia, subject to his orders, and he didn't want them in Central America.  SCOTUS ruled that since the Mn NG was funded by the Feds, they WEREN'T the state militia. So they went to Central America over Perpich's objections.

So it all comes down to who pays for what huh.

In the end though they can talk all the legalese and technicalities that they want but the elephant in the room is that the federal government is not only in complete dereliction of duties but is actively breaking laws, and if you want to go further to the huge beached whale in the room you might say that the federal government is intentionally and strategically betraying the sovereignty of the country and setting fire to the fabric of the nation by orchestrating a foreign invasion. There is a point where domestic authorities become domestic enemies, it all depends on who is daring enough to call a spade a spade. “In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
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zahc

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2024, 08:53:24 AM »
As always there are no good guys here. The Federal government is not acting like the good guy here. They have been amazingly negligent, and TX has a legitimate and strong grievance, but the feds are very clearly in "We DGAF, FAFO" mode. It's amazing to think the feds aren't even trying to address TX's grievances which are legitimate, and they are doing this over essentially defending illegal immigration, which is a strange cause to choose, except I guess it lands so firmly in federal purview. I think about how this will be explained to future school children, but of course we can see how it's being pitched in the contemporary media already...defending the feds will be awkward, like trying to explain actions motivated by slavery preservation. Little Timmy asks "Teacher, why did the federal government take such action?" and the real answer will be "because 2 million people per year were coming into the US illegally, and TX was trying to stop it, and the feds wanted it to continue". But actually they will either dodge the issue, and downplay it I guess, and claim it was a federal action to preserve federal supremacy and try to avoid mentioning they were doing it to preserve the "institution of open borders".

All the same, Abbot can't win this one and I don't know what his angle is. Don't forget Little Rock after Brown vs. Board of education, where Arkansas took a similar stance and their national guard was simply federalized and used against them to enforce federal will. I don't see how that won't simply happen again.
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MechAg94

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2024, 09:00:46 AM »
IMO, Biden and his administration do their best to ignore illegal immigration and have tried (at least in the past) to claim they are doing something.  If Abbott forces the Biden Admin to take forceful action to OPEN the border, it is a win-win for Abbott, especially in an election year.  Even if Abbott backs off after that, it is still a win.
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Blakenzy

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2024, 09:32:04 AM »
The whole situation is so polarizing that guardsmen might just be tempted to ignore being federalized to support CBP illegal immigration operations and go AWOL. Or worse they might continue to hold the line in defiance. They are after all locals to the communities under threat. How do you safely push around or arrest guys with rifles that don't want to comply?
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

dogmush

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2024, 09:44:33 AM »
IMO, Biden and his administration do their best to ignore illegal immigration and have tried (at least in the past) to claim they are doing something.  If Abbott forces the Biden Admin to take forceful action to OPEN the border, it is a win-win for Abbott, especially in an election year.  Even if Abbott backs off after that, it is still a win.

This. 

If Biden federalizes the TXNG, or sends AD troops down there to open the border in this age of citizen reporter and viral video there's no chance he, or any other Democrat, wins the White House this year, and it might actually force the House to finish those articles of impeachment.

HankB

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2024, 09:45:38 AM »
. . . How do you safely push around or arrest guys with rifles that don't want to comply?
SO FAR, I haven't seen news footage of armed NG troops on the border . . . and if they WERE armed, I don't know if they were issued ammo. (I'm not saying they're unarmed, I'm just saying I haven't seen news footage showing armed NG troops.)

A long time ago when some places were calling up the NG for riot duty, ammo often wasn't issued. (Kent State being an exception.) So NG troops and reservists who'd been called up and issued rifles with no ammo often brought their own, much to the dismay of the leadership.

In any case, I DO NOT foresee gunfire breaking out between Fed and State personnel. Lawsuits and such, but we're NOT going to have another Fort Sumpter incident.
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Pb

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2024, 09:52:05 AM »
At this point, what difference does it really make?

There is already such a huge number of immigrants (legal and illegal) in the country that it will skew elections to Left for years, once they or their kids start voting.

Ben

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2024, 09:54:40 AM »
In any case, I DO NOT foresee gunfire breaking out between Fed and State personnel. Lawsuits and such, but we're NOT going to have another Fort Sumpter incident.

I hopefully think you're right. I mean, the majority of BP agents (even non-DC management) down there don't really want to follow Biden's orders. If it came to fellow citizens shooting at each other, I think the BP would stand down from any orders that would result in armed conflict, and I don't think any TXNG soldiers want to shoot BP officers.
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RocketMan

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2024, 09:57:16 AM »
This. 

If Biden federalizes the TXNG, or sends AD troops down there to open the border in this age of citizen reporter and viral video there's no chance he, or any other Democrat, wins the White House this year, and it might actually force the House to finish those meaningless articles of impeachment.

FTFY
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dogmush

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2024, 09:57:59 AM »
SO FAR, I haven't seen news footage of armed NG troops on the border . . . and if they WERE armed, I don't know if they were issued ammo. (I'm not saying they're unarmed, I'm just saying I haven't seen news footage showing armed NG troops.)


Plenty of news storys showing those Guardsman have weapons.  Here are two:
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2024/01/21/what-branch-of-government-is-really-responsible-for-the-border-crisis/72288833007/

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/01/slatest-news-politics-newsletter-texas-border-supreme-court.html

Image search "TX NG at Border 2024" for as many as you'd care to find.

As far as Force Protection Ammo, I have a good idea how much is out there, but it's not really appropriate to go into that publicly, except to say that when the .mil is moving automatic weapons around, even in CONUS, AR 190-11 requires armed guards for the AA&E.

Ben

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2024, 10:12:43 AM »
Several more Governors have come out in support of Texas.

https://twitchy.com/samj/2024/01/25/youngkin-va-stands-with-texas-n2392151

At this point, "stand with Texas" is just talk, but I'm curious: If Biden federalizes TXNG, could Youngkin, for example, order his NG to Texas (obviously with Abbott's permission) to take over TXNG border security? Certainly Biden could then just federalize Virginia NG, but it sure would look bad if the President federalized NG after NG.
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HankB

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Re: It's getting sporty in south Texas
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2024, 10:14:29 AM »
. . . As far as Force Protection Ammo, I have a good idea how much is out there, but it's not really appropriate to go into that publicly, except to say that when the .mil is moving automatic weapons around, even in CONUS, AR 190-11 requires armed guards for the AA&E.
A colleague was an MP in the (peacetime) military. He sometimes picked up or dropped off base mail at the post office. When transporting mail off base, he was required to be armed, and issued a 1911 and FIVE (5) rounds of ammo. These were counted going out, and counted upon his return.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2024, 10:59:40 AM by HankB »
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