Author Topic: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?  (Read 564 times)

Hawkmoon

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Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« on: February 03, 2024, 02:13:16 AM »
Here's a question:

I recently bought two new APC (American Power Conversions) UPSs for my two primary desktop computers. My third desktop is an even older Dell tower that I finally updated to an SSD drive to make it marginally tolerable when running Windows 10. This is the one I recently tried to increase the RAM in -- the upgrade failed, so I'm stuck with 4 GB of RAM. It works okay for most things, it's just not capable of running YouTube videos without a lot of stuttering (probably due to buffering issues due to low RAM). As a backup to the backup, it's fine.

Now that the "old-old" (as I call it) desktop is marginally functional again, and given the unreliability of the electricity here, I'd like to have somewhat better protection than the plug strip I have the computer and monitor plugged into. That has a surge suppressor function, but I don't know how reliable it is, and I don't know any way to test it.

I still have an old APC BackUPS 600 that must be 20 years old, or older. I had retired it a couple of years ago when it failed to keep my computer going long enough to save and shut down during a power outage. At the time, I thought I had tried replacing the batteries (it takes two) with no success, so that's why I bought the new units.

Now I'm thinking about buying another UPS for the third desktop, but I pulled out the old UPS 600 for another look before ordering. The batteries in it still have stickers on them suggesting that they might be the originals. Even though it has been sitting for over a year without being connected to a/c power, the batteries still test at 5.8v and 6.1v under no load (tested with a multimeter). I plugged it in overnight, then plugged in a small tabletop fan (house type, not computer type) for a test. When I unplugged it while the fan was running -- the fan kept running. So it's apparently not completely kaput.

Now I'm wondering if the thing might still be okay. That means I have to make a choice between risking $32 to try a pair of new batteries, versus spending $150 to $175 for a new UPS. What do you think?


Secondary question: The old APC BackUPS 600 takes two 6-volt batteries that are connected in series to produce 12 volts. Most of the newer APC UPSs use a single 12-volt battery. A single 12-volt battery would take up less space than two 6-volt batteries, so I could substitute what would be a replacement battery that fits the new ones and put it into the old one with shims to keep it from rattling around. It might (or might not) result in less runtime, but I wouldn't need to keep working if the power fails. I only need 30 seconds to a minute, so I can save and shut down safely. And if the old BackUPS 600 doesn't work with the new battery, I wouldn't have completely wasted the cost of the two 6-colt batteries, which WON'T fit into the new units. Again, what do you think?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2024, 04:48:45 PM »
Update: Decision made.

I discovered that I also have an old (but not as old) APC BackUPS CS 500, rescued from a construction site trailer where it had been set aside probably because the battery had expired. This model takes a single 12-volt battery. So I have ordered batteries for both. I hope the odds are in my favor that at least one of the two will return to serviceable condition with the infusion of new batteries.

Plus, the single 12-volt battery is sized such that, in a pinch, it can be used to replace the two 6-volt batteries (which are connected in series) in the BackUPS 600. Lower amp-hour rating would yield shorter run time, but if the power fails I won't keep working -- I only need enough time to save whatever I'm working on and shut down.
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JTHunter

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2024, 05:05:26 PM »
It wasn't an APC unit (IIRC) but I had a UPS go out and I decided to "experiment".
I carefully took the unit apart and it had a single battery that connected to the guts with little tabs like on many automotive systems.  I took the battery to "Batteries Plus" and was able to get a near perfect match and I just plugged it in, reassembled the unit and let it charge overnight.

It's been running for 2-3 years now without a problem.  It also cost about half of what a new unit would have cost for a comparably sized unit.
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K Frame

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2024, 05:16:40 PM »
Yes.

There's power in there.

And you can't interrupt it.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2024, 05:19:42 PM »
They work? All the ones I’ve had dealings with were crap that didn’t.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2024, 11:49:02 AM »
Guesstimating each of your desktop/monitor combos represents a 100-120w load. All mfg's claims aside, you'll probably have no more than 15-20 minutes of real life runtime on a 600VA UPS (more likely 10-12 if my experience is any indicator).

Are all your computers in the same room and do you normally use only one at a time? If so, you might consider consolidating. Go with a much larger single unit and power everything from it. That way, if power goes down while you're on a machine, you have plenty of time to power everything else down at a leisurely pace. If they're all in hibernation, you'll have plenty of headroom. It also adds backup power capability for things like your internet gateway/router. I went this route on our office setup when I caught the APC 1500 on sale. We have a total of two machines, three monitors, the ISP gateway, and our primary home network router. I can power everything for about 45 mins, or I can power down to just internet-related hardware and have a tick over four hours.

Brad
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2024, 02:33:10 PM »
Anyone still buying APC SmartUPS and similar systems when far superior options exist from the Lithium Iron Phosphate inverter market with both higher output wattage and higher watt-hour reserves, is being duped by the numbering system that APC and others use to market their products.

A SmartUPS 1500 may run a 1000 watt load for about 6 minutes; An Ecoflow Delta II will run a 1000 watt load for an hour.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2024, 04:24:35 PM »
A SmartUPS 1500 may run a 1000 watt load for about 6 minutes; An Ecoflow Delta II will run a 1000 watt load for an hour.

True, but it's also six times the price ($170 vs $1000).

Brad
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 04:47:57 PM by Brad Johnson »
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2024, 05:44:42 PM »
True, but it's also six times the price ($170 vs $1000).

Brad

Not from what I see.  SmartUPS in the 1500 classification run $620 to $750.

An EcoFlow Delta 2 is $699 right now.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2024, 07:39:56 PM »
APC basic 1500VA
$169.50
https://a.co/d/j7afd02

Ecoflow Delta 2
$999
https://a.co/d/6vf1KVB

Brad
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2024, 09:49:19 AM »
APC basic 1500VA
$169.50
https://a.co/d/j7afd02

Ecoflow Delta 2
$999
https://a.co/d/6vf1KVB

Brad

APC 1500 series with 6m30s runtime for 1000 watt load
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SMT1500C/apc-smartups-line-interactive-1500va-tower-120v-8x-nema-515r-outlets-smartconnect-port+smartslot-avr-lcd
$679

Delta 2 with ~60min runtime for 1000 watt load
https://us.ecoflow.com/collections/delta-series/products/delta-2-portable-power-station?variant=40569176326217
$699

I can't find a runtime calculator for the one you listed, but given that it is much smaller than the one I listed, I'd guess at less than 2 minutes of runtime of a 1000 watt load, if it could do it at all.

But if you really want me to find a ~$200 option for low end PC's that is superior to a SmartUPS, I'd point to this:
https://us.ecoflow.com/products/river-2-portable-power-station?variant=40589642039369

$219, 300 watt pure sine output and can handle brief demands up to 600 watts, 256 watt-hour storage capacity.  It'll run a desktop PC for an hour or so, assuming it isn't a high powered gamer rig.

Back when I used to work IT and APC or TrippLite were all the rage at the bottom of every 42U rack, the integration software to actually tell your computer to shut down when the UPS detects a power outage was a virus, and was unresolved by either vendor for like a decade... so unless they have finally fixed that problem then auto shutdown integration isn't likely to be reliable for either platform.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2024, 10:45:08 AM »
APC 1500 series with 6m30s runtime for 1000 watt load
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SMT1500C/apc-smartups-line-interactive-1500va-tower-120v-8x-nema-515r-outlets-smartconnect-port+smartslot-avr-lcd
$679

There is no need for the additional functionality (and expense) of the Back-UPS Pro series. The discussion is about basic in-betweener backup power, not automated shutdowns. The plain jane 1500VA dumb unit is plenty fine for this purpose. Also, we're not talking about 1000w continuous loads, but if we are the River is right out as it's limited to 300w and has but a single grounded AC outlet. The basic APC 1500 will handle up to 900w with five UPS outlets and five additional surge-protected outlets.

I don't doubt the River 2 is a good unit. It has great power density and good packaging for solo use scenarios. However, in the discussion's context the River lacks critical capacity and connectivity elements compared to the basic APC 1500VA unit, plus still being substantially more expensive.

Brad
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 02:06:53 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Bogie

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2024, 01:24:10 AM »
So, take the switcher out of one you pick up from Goodwill, and run four batteries, series/parallel, however, start out with them charged, and do that...
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2024, 09:05:45 PM »
Update: And why I don't gamble.

I have two APC Back-UPS units that don't provide any battery runtime. I thought the odds were good that a new battery (or batteries) would bring at least one of them back. I thought wrong. The new batteries have arrived. I have installed them, left the units to charge the new batteries overnight, and tested them.

No improvement. The instant the house power is cut, the computer shuts off.

So it appears that I have several spare batteries for my home security system, or for workbench projects.

For a computer that's a back-up to the back-up, I think the APC Back-UPS 850 will be adequate. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06WP9Q8ZN/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2024, 12:20:39 AM »
Stupid question, but did you remove the battery terminal protective covers before installing? I ask because I had the same problem, and same solution, once.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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lee n. field

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2024, 10:32:24 AM »
Update: And why I don't gamble.

I have two APC Back-UPS units that don't provide any battery runtime. I thought the odds were good that a new battery (or batteries) would bring at least one of them back. I thought wrong. The new batteries have arrived. I have installed them, left the units to charge the new batteries overnight, and tested them.

No improvement. The instant the house power is cut, the computer shuts off.

So it appears that I have several spare batteries for my home security system, or for workbench projects.

For a computer that's a back-up to the back-up, I think the APC Back-UPS 850 will be adequate. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06WP9Q8ZN/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Make sure the thing is actually ON. 
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Cliffh

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2024, 11:28:02 AM »
Make sure the thing is actually ON. 

I've got a couple old APC UPS's that the switch sticks.  It'll look as if it's on, but it's not.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Who knows the inner workings of uninterruptible power supplies?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2024, 12:00:25 PM »
Make sure the thing is actually ON. 

^^^
This.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB