Squatters Should Be Shot

[dogmush]

While reading that twitter thread I noticed this gem:

There are consultants who now get rid of squatters. Give the consultant a  lease also and then the consultant moves in with the squatter and make things very uncomfortable for the squatter.

That usually gets the squatter out voluntarily quickly. The consultant gets their fee and owner gets their place back.

On one hand it's depressing there's enough of a market that that service exists, on the other, I kinda wonder what it costs and how to find such a consultant, just in case.

[sumpnz]

So your plan is wait for the authorities to do something.   

Let's see how long that takes. We're 4 years and counting according to that news story.

What happens if the authorities do show up, and they have immigrated legally? Deport anyway?  That's illegal. [Clutches pearls] 

Deportation involves authorities not previously involved.

[dogmush]

Deportation involves authorities not previously involved.

Valid point.  Although those authorities don't seem super interested in actually deporting anyone right now.  Maybe next Jan, if St. Louis is lucky.

[BobR]

Deportation involves authorities not previously involved.

Deportation involves another set of authorities who would rather turn a blind eye and kick the can down the road while providing lip service to those that need to hear something is being done.

bob

[Hawkmoon]

Back to the NY squatter in the story:

Does he ever leave the house? I guess it would be prudent to check with a NY attorney first, but my thought would be to wait until he's absent -- enter the house, change the locks, lock the doors, and camp inside. When he returns and tries to enter -- call the cops and report him from trying to break into YOUR home. Have all the documents proving your ownership (or copies thereof) handy to show Officer Friendly when he shows up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhz5r1JKwjs

[Bogie]

My neighborhood is mostly fairly privileged folks... They order doordash and have the untouchables deliver it. They have ZERO clue about what to do about an "aggressive person" problem, other than call the police, and our police now know that if they get called, they're gonna show up after the excrement has contacted the air handler, in order to have significantly less personal liability. The mostly peaceful protests pounded that home.
 
My neighbors do NOT like hearing the words "mostly peaceful protests."
 
Gigglesnort.

[Hawkmoon]

Another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_hjqZQ1UY

[BobR]

Another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB_hjqZQ1UY

Violation of probation.

Possibly go to jail for two years. Which solves the homeless problem.   

bob

[Ben]

This story makes me wonder if there are "squatter attorneys" who get paid by some dumbass commie NGO or by Soros. These squatters hired a lawyer, but the case quickly fell apart and they dropped their lawsuit against the rightful homeowner. Who is paying the attorney fees and court costs?

I know that ambulance chasers will take a case pro bono in hopes of a big payout, so if they lose a case, it's just a short term loss until the next insurance settlement . Yet here, there is no payout (or at least not a big one), so I have to assume some "squatter's rights" organization is providing the attorney or paying the fees.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/shake-shack-squatters-lawsuit-against-lawful-homeowners-discontinued-owner-wants-justice

[dogmush]

I don't think there's any reason to think these squaters, who stole a million dollar duplex, and furnished it with mattresses, electronics, and a massage table among other things, don't have the money to hire a lawyer.

[Perd Hapley]

This story makes me wonder if there are "squatter attorneys" who get paid by some dumbass commie NGO or by Soros. These squatters hired a lawyer, but the case quickly fell apart and they dropped their lawsuit against the rightful homeowner. Who is paying the attorney fees and court costs?

I know that ambulance chasers will take a case pro bono in hopes of a big payout, so if they lose a case, it's just a short term loss until the next insurance settlement . Yet here, there is no payout (or at least not a big one), so I have to assume some "squatter's rights" organization is providing the attorney or paying the fees.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/shake-shack-squatters-lawsuit-against-lawful-homeowners-discontinued-owner-wants-justice

Probably something like that going on. They'll claim to be helping the unhoused, or housing equity, or something.

[dogmush]

Filling a hole in the market

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI6iRxaNagM


 

[K Frame]

What baffles me is why there haven't been any cases of squatters being shot by the owners.

[WLJ]

What baffles me is why there haven't been any cases of squatters being shot by the owners.

Most homeowners know how that will go for them since in many states the law is on the side of the squatter. They may get rid of the squatter but then spend the rest of their lives in prison.

[HankB]

Most homeowners know how that will go for them since in many states the law is on the side of the squatter. They may get rid of the squatter but then spend the rest of their lives in prison.

That's quite true - but NOT ALL states consider home invaders and burglars to have squatter's rights. I can understand - note, I said understand, not support - states that won't let you summarily eject (let alone shoot) actual renters who stop paying rent per an agreement they signed with the actual owner, but siding with  people who break in and won't leave, or have forged documents . . . 

[MechAg94]

What baffles me is why there haven't been any cases of squatters being shot by the owners.

I have no experience with this sort of thing, but I imagine that if the home owners do it right, we would never hear about it. 

[dogmush]

That's quite true - but NOT ALL states consider home invaders and burglars to have squatter's rights. I can understand - note, I said understand, not support - states that won't let you summarily eject (let alone shoot) actual renters who stop paying rent per an agreement they signed with the actual owner, but siding with  people who break in and won't leave, or have forged documents . . . 

A lot of these tools are sophisticated enough that it's not immediately obvious to the police that they broke in, or that the documents are forged.  Which is why they kick it over to the civil court side for an eviction.

I would be interested in if any of these PD's are following up on squatters that lose their civil case for fraud, burglary, or whatnot.

[MechAg94]

A lot of these tools are sophisticated enough that it's not immediately obvious to the police that they broke in, or that the documents are forged.  Which is why they kick it over to the civil court side for an eviction.

I would be interested in if any of these PD's are following up on squatters that lose their civil case for fraud, burglary, or whatnot.

Does anyone know if New York counties have property tax information available online?  Meaning, can they look up the name of the current registered owner?  At the very least, the court should be able to look that up and determine the rightful owner really fast.  Sounds like New York and other states have some crazy laws that a squatter can take advantage of.

[Ben]

A lot of these tools are sophisticated enough that it's not immediately obvious to the police that they broke in, or that the documents are forged.  Which is why they kick it over to the civil court side for an eviction.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of these are the squatters claiming that they went through a rental company that turns out to be fake and have a lease from them, and that's when many cities give the squatters the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure that in some of those instances, the squatters were legitimately taken for a ride, though I'm going to guess that the percentage is small.

Even when that's the case, I'm not sure why the actual owner of the property has to take the hit. If someone buys stolen property and the cops track it down, they take the property from the buyer and return it to the owner. The buyer is out of luck - buyer beware. Somehow with housing, it's reversed and the owner is the one out of luck.

[dogmush]

Because renter protection laws were written when it was mostly shady landlords doing shady *expletive deleted*it.

I don't agree with them all, but having had a shady landlord back in the day I can understand why we don't just allow them to show up, kick bad renters out, and change the locks.  You would get (and did have) the real estate version of Buy Here, Pay here car dealers or Title loans.

Unfortunately, that protection also leaves the door open for the abuses from the other side we are talking about here.

Ideally, there'd be some hearing *very* early in the eviction process where you can claim that this is NOT a landlord-tenant dispute, but a case of squatting, and if it's found that there never existed a legit rental agreement at that hearing, the civil case stops, it kicks back to criminal proceedings, and arrest warrants are issued.  That would require some liability on stupid, but legit renters to make sure they have copies of leases to provide the courts, but nothing's perfect.

Government being what it is, I suspect you will see their answer is there needs to be more government, probably in the form of an state or county office of lease approvals, that is required to review and approve all leases, and you can't rent real estate without registering it with the .gov.  There will, of course, be a small fee to cover administration expenses of the new office.   

[K Frame]

My Mom's house sat vacant for a couple of weeks between the time I put it on the market and when it finally closed.

I was worried, not that someone was going to cop a squat in the place, but that someone was going to break in and start stripping out the copper and bronze pipes and the electrical wiring, if not the cast iron radiators and the Victorian-era woodwork.

[Brad Johnson]

That's quite true - but NOT ALL states consider home invaders and burglars to have squatter's rights. I can understand - note, I said understand, not support - states that won't let you summarily eject (let alone shoot) actual renters who stop paying rent per an agreement they signed with the actual owner, but siding with  people who break in and won't leave, or have forged documents . . . 

It's the forged documents part that gets sticky. What with the sea of bogus rental listings, dealing with renters signing lease agreements in good faith only to later find they've been duped gets complicated. Unfortunately, it also makes them a harmed party, often one with no recourse and/or alternate housing. Ultimately, they have no right to be in the property, sure, but laws, courts, and law enforcement have to dance delicately in that respect lest the victimization be compounded.

People who move in with the intent to defraud? No. Boot them. Now. Would be nice if owners had some kind "Not for rent" registry, a preemptive Kiss My ass to anyone with nefarious intent. Unsure how something like this would be administered, though.

Brad

[HankB]

If a court takes a squatter's forged rental, lease, or sale agreement seriously, doesn't the court have to take a forged pardon for shooting the home invader or burglar seriously as well?

[dogmush]

If a court takes a squatter's forged rental, lease, or sale agreement seriously, doesn't the court have to take a forged pardon for shooting the home invader or burglar seriously as well?

How do you know it's forged and the landlord didn't just change their mind?

For that matter, what about the millions of people that are renting month to month without a lease?  Not smart, but it shouldn't mean the landlords can just throw them out on the street.  And I say that as a Landlord.  I would NEVER let someone move in without a lease to protect us both, but there's plenty of people that do, on both sides of the rent relationship, decide to forgo that paperwork.  Tenant protection laws exist because people were actually getting victimized in living memory. 

[MechAg94]

Because renter protection laws were written when it was mostly shady landlords doing shady *expletive deleted*it.

I don't agree with them all, but having had a shady landlord back in the day I can understand why we don't just allow them to show up, kick bad renters out, and change the locks.  You would get (and did have) the real estate version of Buy Here, Pay here car dealers or Title loans.

Unfortunately, that protection also leaves the door open for the abuses from the other side we are talking about here.

Ideally, there'd be some hearing *very* early in the eviction process where you can claim that this is NOT a landlord-tenant dispute, but a case of squatting, and if it's found that there never existed a legit rental agreement at that hearing, the civil case stops, it kicks back to criminal proceedings, and arrest warrants are issued.  That would require some liability on stupid, but legit renters to make sure they have copies of leases to provide the courts, but nothing's perfect.

Government being what it is, I suspect you will see their answer is there needs to be more government, probably in the form of an state or county office of lease approvals, that is required to review and approve all leases, and you can't rent real estate without registering it with the .gov.  There will, of course, be a small fee to cover administration expenses of the new office.   

I was thinking about some system to register lease agreements also.  And yes, the fees would likely get too large and the local govts would likely try to pile inspection or safety requirements on the landlords. 

Texas has a standard rent/lease agreement form that just about everyone uses (that was the case when I rented apartments 20 years ago).  I don't know if that helps this situation or not.