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Guns For Illegals?

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ConstitutionCowboy:
Judge Says Illegals Can Own and Carry Guns Under the Second Amendment

Here is why they can't:

"We the People of the United States" in the Preamble to the Constitution does not say the people "in" the United States. One must be a citizen - a person of the United States - to have these rights and privileges secured and to take part in our governance.

The Preamble goes on to state the purpose of the Constitution is to "... establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity ...", with no mention of non-citizens, foreign governments, or any others whatsoever. "To ourselves" is quite obviously succinct. ANYTHING beyond "to ourselves" is unconstitutional.

We fought for and won the protection of our God given rights and blessings delineated in the Constitution - for ourselves. While all people have inalienable God given rights, those people need to fight for and secure those rights for themselves in their own country. Beyond that, they can enjoy our protections here in the United States only if and when they apply for admission and citizenship and are allowed as provided for in our Constitution.

The Preamble says it all. It is the reason for the rest of the Constitution to exist.

Woody   

MechAg94:
IMO, they shouldn't be in the US at all.  That said, I don't think we should be worrying about whether they can legally buy guns.  Same as other criminals, they will get them anyway. 


I think I fall in the category of "the 2nd Amendment applies to everyone", not just citizens.  Everyone has the right of self defense.  Illegals should be deported.  I don't care if they possessed firearms. 

dogmush:
I disagree, strongly.

The right's discussed in the Bill of rights are pre-existing, as a function of being human.  The BOR prohibits the government from taking away or restricting those preexisting rights of people.

There is no other right enumerated in the 1st ten ammendments that we feel only belongs to a citizen.  Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to be secure in your home and effects, have a fair trial and not incriminate yourself are all rights the government is prohibited from violating against any person.  There is nothing in the second amendment to imply that it doesn't also enjoin the government from infringing on the rights of non citizens to go armed.


Further, the constitution separates citizen from person in several places.


--- Quote from: Article I, Section 2 ---No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
--- End quote ---

Clearly saying that a Citizen is a sub-set of Person (capitalization theirs).  Person being singular of People.  They do the same thing with requirement to be a Senator and POTUS.

Article IV also delineates a difference between Citizen and Person (or People):

--- Quote ---The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
--- End quote ---

Where the founders meant "Citizen" they said it.  The Bill of Rights talks about "People" because it prohibits government abuse of everyone in the country.

Certainly folks have read it the wrong way in the past (slaves, freed slaves, and Indians being the obvious examples), but it's clear. 

Also taken in concert with the Declaration of Independence that the Rights are conferred by the Creator upon all men, and the BOR prevents the government from abusing those Creator granted rights, the delineation between People and Citizen is even more nonsensical.


I too would like to see our immigration laws actually enforced.  The folks here illegally should be arrested, given due process while respecting their human rights, and if found guilty of illegally entering the US, deported and flagged to deny further entry.

AZRedhawk44:
Well argued, dogmush.

Count me on board with your stance.  BOR does not empower anything, it is a restraint on government.  I have no problem with illegals owning firearms.  I am fully OK if they bought them anonymously online with cryptocurrency with the intent to protect their marijuana plants, or 3D printed them, or whatever.

cordex:
I agree with the idea that the Bill of Rights protects non-citizens.

However, if someone has committed the crime of illegal immigration, as dogmush says they should be arrested and deported if convicted.  Thus, their ownership of firearms is a non-issue.

It's not their ownership of firearms that is relevant to me.

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