Author Topic: Bridge collapse in Baltimore  (Read 8667 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,796
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2024, 05:41:56 PM »
Me neither but I thought I would ask if you saw any.

Well unless we're off base here either the pilot and/or crew is lying about dropping the anchor before impact and/or the media is lying (shocker) about what they said.

Edit: Maybe the pilot gave the order to drop anchor but the crew didn't actually carry out the order. Maybe that's what's going on here.

Now the anchor story changes to be more in line with what we're seeing

Quote
One officer on the Dali also said that before the crash, the engines 'coughed and then stopped.' There was not enough time before the ship hit the bridge to drop anchors prompting the vessel to drift.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13246433/Bodies-recovered-Patapsco-River-Dali-cargo-ship-baltimore-Francis-Scott-key-bridge.html
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2024, 06:05:05 PM »
Nah, I blew up the original picture on a good monitor.  It's just strange shaped wreckage.  False alarm.

Blown up, I can see the Stbd Windlass under some wreckage, and clearly moved from where it should be on the deck, and I can see the Stbd anchor chain going into the mess of wreckage, but I haven't found either the anchor chain coming out of the wreckage (like the anchor was in the water) or the anchor itself.  Of course if they were dragging it when they hit the wreckage could have snapped the chain.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,796
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2024, 06:08:53 PM »
Nah, I blew up the original picture on a good monitor.  It's just strange shaped wreckage.  False alarm.

You had me seeing it . The power of suggestion :rofl:

But it turns out as stated above they didn't drop it.
If that article is correct of course.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,796
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2024, 07:18:10 PM »
Hmmm

Quote
The Dali cargo ship which smashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge suffered a 'severe electrical problem' while docked in Baltimore days before, according to a port worker.

Julie Mitchell, co-administrator of Container Royalty, a company which tracks cargo, told CNN the ship was anchored at the port for at least 48 hours prior to the deadly crash.

Following the devastation, she said: 'And those two days, they were having serious power outages… they had a severe electrical problem. It was total power failure, loss of engine power, everything.'

Mitchell explained that refrigerated boxes tripped breakers on board the ship on several occasions, and mechanics had been trying to fix the issue.

She said she didn't know whether the problem had been fixed when the ship set off.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13246079/Dali-cargo-ship-suffered-severe-electrical-problem-docked-Baltimore-days-prior-bridge-collapse-crash-saw-suffer-total-power-failure-loss-engine-failure-port-worker-says.html
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2024, 08:06:24 PM »
OK sure, but again:

1. Marine diesel engines do not shut off when they lose electrical power.  They have enough battery power to keep running for a bit, and
2. The Dali was required by International Maritime Organization regulations (and US CFRs) to have an Emergency Generator that comes on line automatically within 45 sec and powers, among other things, engines, steering, and navigational equipment.

Those things are required in ship design for exactly this reason, so if you lose an SSDG you can navigate the vessel safely until power is restored.  I'm confident watching that video that the E Gen didn't come on as it was supposed to, but unless the whole thing was just an unmaintained POS (a possible scenario) this doesn't add up.  This is multiple failures in multiple non connected systems, and we still don't have an explanation as to what caused that abrupt turn to starboard right when the power came on the first time.  The internet can *expletive deleted*ck right off with "wind and current".  You don't drift in a straight line while dark ship for a full minute, then as soon as the power comes on have the current swing your bow 15*-20* in 40 secs.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,796
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2024, 08:35:43 PM »
I keep being reminded of what happened to the USS South Dakota where the main guns would sometimes trip the circuit breakers and the engineer's solution was to tie them down which was against regs. This caused cascading failures in her electrical systems causing her to go blind and deaf during battle. Lucky for the SD USS Washington was there otherwise thing could have gone very badly for her.

Wonder if the "fix" for the Dali's elec problems while in port caused something similar.
Not to sound discriminatory but read her crew was all Indian and the Indians I've worked with in IT were know to Jerry-rig things and not in a good way.

Just a bit of speculation.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 08:49:17 PM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,870
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2024, 10:18:40 PM »
OK sure, but again:

1. Marine diesel engines do not shut off when they lose electrical power.  They have enough battery power to keep running for a bit, and
2. The Dali was required by International Maritime Organization regulations (and US CFRs) to have an Emergency Generator that comes on line automatically within 45 sec and powers, among other things, engines, steering, and navigational equipment.

Those things are required in ship design for exactly this reason, so if you lose an SSDG you can navigate the vessel safely until power is restored.  I'm confident watching that video that the E Gen didn't come on as it was supposed to, but unless the whole thing was just an unmaintained POS (a possible scenario) this doesn't add up.  This is multiple failures in multiple non connected systems, and we still don't have an explanation as to what caused that abrupt turn to starboard right when the power came on the first time.  The internet can *expletive deleted*ck right off with "wind and current".  You don't drift in a straight line while dark ship for a full minute, then as soon as the power comes on have the current swing your bow 15*-20* in 40 secs.
What is typical for checking or testing that backup generator?  In my employer's plants that have them, it isn't unusual for them to fail to start or something on the electrical side fail.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,803
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2024, 10:23:41 PM »
My theory is cyberattack or sabotage that spoofed the navigation or took over the controls. The "power failures" were deliberate attempts by the crew to reboot systems and take back control of the ship or reset the systems.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,870
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2024, 10:28:15 PM »
So is it past too soon yet? 

So anyone over that way considered that they now have a real boating accident to blame for missing guns?
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,347
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2024, 10:34:57 PM »
Interesting data point:

After posting that I tried to think of other ports in the US that both serve deep water large shipping, have to go under a bridge to get there, and have a relatively new bridge.  New York and SF are obviously old bridges, as is the Delaware Memorial Bridge (over the Delaware River).

Thanks for reminding me of my age.

The Delaware Memorial Bridge isn't all that much older. It was ONE bridge when I was on active duty and stationed at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland. The second, parallel bridge was either in construction when I was stationed there (mid-1960s) or was constructed after I had returned from Vietnam in 1968.

Update: According the Wikipedia, the original span (now the eastbound side) was completed in 1951. The westbound span was completed in 1968.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Angel Eyes

  • Lying dog-faced pony soldier
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,458
  • You're not diggin'
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2024, 11:51:15 PM »
Found on X:


""If you elect me, your taxes are going to be raised, not cut."
                         - master strategist Joe Biden

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,595
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2024, 07:18:59 AM »
Found on X:





NO NO NO! FALSE FLAG! IT WAS ALIENS! AND NORKS! AND ISLAMOJIHADIS! SHIPS CAN'T BEND STEEL! THE BRIDGE WAS PULLED! IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB! TRUMP!
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #87 on: March 28, 2024, 07:28:59 AM »
What is typical for checking or testing that backup generator?  In my employer's plants that have them, it isn't unusual for them to fail to start or something on the electrical side fail.

Regulatory requirement is that the E-gen is started and run once a week, and you must do a full test, where you kill power to the E Switchboard the E. generator starts and takes the load automatically in under 45 sec, once a month.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,943
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2024, 08:04:37 AM »
Interesting that the other spans collapsed as well.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 10:04:29 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2024, 08:23:58 AM »
Found on X:



I mostly agree with Chief here.  (I posted something similar back on Page 2) with a few minor things:

Dali doesn't have a Stern Thruster  If she did she would have the same thruster marks she has above the bow over the stern thruster and you can clearly see in plenty of pics she does not.

I still stand by my statement the the E Gen didn't kick on.  If it had, you'd have seen the nav lights come back on before the deck lights.  Deck Lights are *rarely* on the emergancy switchboard, while nav lights are required to be.  This is a big deal, because if the E. Gen had done what it was supposed to, she could have just continued her transit under the bridge and the engineers could have fixed her main gens at their leisure.  That 1 minute power outage is the snipes getting main power back. 

"Shortly after the lights come back the Captain relizes he's on a collision course with the bridge"  This makes no sense.  All the nav equipment on the bridge is on a battery backup (again required to be there and tested) so he would have known for the whole time he was dark ship exactly where the boat was going, and he wasn't on a collision course with the bridge until they turned the boat.  They were still heading straight through the opening.

Whoever, or whatever, caused the sharp Stbd turn right after they got power back the first time, either thruster, dropped anchor, rudder input, or crash stop engine torque, that's what caused the crash. I'm still reasonably confident it wasn't the current though.  You don't drift straight for a minute then lose control to the current once power comes back on.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2024, 10:00:57 AM »
NTSB Press conference discussing the timeline and what was recorded on the Vessel Data Recorder: https://youtu.be/jyF_ug1cK9w?t=92

Quote
At 0124:59 numerous audible alarms were recorded on the ship's bridge audio.  About the same time VDR {Voyage Data Recorder] sensor data ceased recording [this was the first power outage, VDR audio has a battery backup-dogmush]
.....

at around 0126:02 the VDR resumed recording sensor data and during this time there were steering commands and rudder orders recorded on the audio

bolding mine.

I called it: that turn was the result of rudder input, given in haste when the power came back on.  They should have just steered through the opening they were already heading towards instead of ordering a hard right turn.

Interestingly, (and this is speculation on my part) in that brief the NTSB specifies when it's the pilot ordering things "The Harbor piolet radioed...the pilot ordered the port anchor dropped....etc) but declines to mention who gave the rudder commands on the audio.  It doesn't really matter, as pilot or no pilot the ship is the Master's responsibility.


ETA:  It also sounds like the pilot was on the right track.  After the unneccicary turn to STBD, and with control lost again, he ordered the port anchor dropped, which would have slowed the ship and slewed it back to port.  It should have been rigged for freefall in the harbor, so it wouldn't have needed power to emergency drop.  If they had gotten it out they might have been able to slip under the bridge, but it's hard to say.  Once she turned that far to Stbd it was about their only chance though.  Props to the pilot for thinking of it in the moment.

Cliffh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,267
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2024, 11:46:10 AM »


Quote
At 0124:59 numerous audible alarms were recorded on the ship's bridge audio.  About the same time VDR {Voyage Data Recorder] sensor data ceased recording [this was the first power outage, VDR audio has a battery backup-dogmush]
.....

at around 0126:02 the VDR resumed recording sensor data and during this time there were steering commands and rudder orders recorded on the audio


According to the report, the VDR stopped recording when the power went out.  But, you state that the VDR has a battery backup.  Why would it stop recording?

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2024, 12:09:25 PM »

According to the report, the VDR stopped recording when the power went out.  But, you state that the VDR has a battery backup.  Why would it stop recording?

VDR stopped recording sensor data.  NTSB states that it continued recording audio data.  The mics are built into (or plugged directly into) the VDR.  The sensor data (helm angle, rudder angle, throttle command, throttle actual, heading, rate of turn, etc) are pulled from the Integrated Bridge System.  Without looking at the particular installation on the Dali, I can tell you that the one's I've seen pull that info through an interconnection box (think router for the IBS)  That interconnection box is probably powered by 120VAC (maybe 220) from the emergency switch board.

So the VDR itself has battery backup.  The Electronic Charts and Radar displays, GPS, one of the VHF's, probably some other stuff that are all critical have battery backup, but some of the "2nd tier critical" stuff will be on the E. Switchboard and come back on when the E. Gen fires up.  Remember that's supposed to be less than 45 secs, and there's only so many batteries you can shove under the console on a bridge.

The NTSB says that the VDR lost sensor date when the alarms went off (Audio alarms on all the battery powered stuff.) then picked up sensor data again a minute later when the power came back on.  That sounds like power cycling to the interconnection box.

Look at this VDR system:  https://markogroup.com/en/ship-supply/voyage-data-recorder-rutter-vdr-nw6000/

The mics are PoE directly to the Core unit, which has an Uninterruptable power supply, but a bunch of the sensors are going through the NW64XX Data Acquisition Unit, which is going to pull power from the E. Switch board.  Some of the other sensors (RADARs and ECDIS mostly) may have to have digital-NMEA conversion boxes to pull the signal from the PC and make it readable to ship electronics depending on what exactly is installed.  Those boxes may also be on E. Switchboard power.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,595
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2024, 12:29:58 PM »
Your explanations reek of strawman false flag misdirection.

It was Islamojihadis.

:rofl:


Interesting that the unit will still record audio after a power failure. I'd have figured it would all be processed through the integrated bridge system.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Cliffh

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,267
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2024, 12:35:46 PM »

Makes sense.  When I read "sensor data" I *assumed* all sensors - including audio.

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,943
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2024, 11:03:20 AM »
Trying to digest it all...

I think someone touched on this.  What if during the power outage someone was trying to get the directional equipment to work by heeling the "wheel' back and forth in a panic, then it was left in starboard mode so when power was restored, the directional equipment suddenly responded to the last command... i.e., to full starboard.

Is that what dogmush was saying here? "I called it: that turn was the result of rudder input, given in haste when the power came back on.  They should have just steered through the opening they were already heading towards instead of ordering a hard right turn."

Sorry, but I'm just bewizzled by this complex matter.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2024, 11:29:51 AM »
Trying to digest it all...

I think someone touched on this.  What if during the power outage someone was trying to get the directional equipment to work by heeling the "wheel' back and forth in a panic, then it was left in starboard mode so when power was restored, the directional equipment suddenly responded to the last command... i.e., to full starboard.

That scenario would depend a lot on the exact model of helm installed on the vessel.  In general, giving wheel input while nothing is powered on won't "save" that input for power.  The rudder order system would need to be powered up, but without looking at exactly the system on that boat it's impossible to say if that could or could not happen 100%.

But...
Is that what dogmush was saying here? "I called it: that turn was the result of rudder input, given in haste when the power came back on.  They should have just steered through the opening they were already heading towards instead of ordering a hard right turn."

Sorry, but I'm just bewizzled by this complex matter.

No, that's not what I was implying.  I think, and the NTSB press release seems to concur, that AFTER the power came back on the first time, they gave rudder and engine orders to attempt to abort going under the bridge.  (Crash stop, and really any rudder at all.  They were still lined up after the first power outage ended, at 0126:02).  They were WAY to close to abort at that point, and the attempt doomed them.  The "I called it" was back to me saying from the first video that that sharp turn was from control input, verified by orders and rudder commands recorded on the VDR at the time the sharp turn began.   

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,264
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #97 on: March 30, 2024, 05:58:41 PM »
Army Corps is suggesting "weeks not months" to get things open again. Probably like a month then, with the inevitable boondoggles, breakdowns, and environmental activist work stoppages.  =)

https://www.theepochtimes.com/us/daunting-cleanup-of-baltimore-bridge-begins-while-investigation-into-collapse-could-last-two-years-5618612
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,943
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2024, 01:45:55 AM »
dogmush: Reply # 96; Many thanks.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,796
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Bridge collapse in Baltimore
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2024, 07:45:41 AM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes