Author Topic: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "  (Read 6463 times)

WLJ

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To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« on: April 30, 2024, 02:49:40 PM »
All new cars starting in 2029 will be required to have auto braking systems

Quote
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is mandating all passenger vehicles to be kitted out with the brakes in a strive to save 362 lives per year, amid a 'crisis in roadway deaths'.

But the rule will also drive up prices, which NHTSA estimates to come at a total cost of $354 million per year in 2020 dollars, or $82 per vehicle.

The law comes into effect September 2029, giving auto makers more than five years to remodel any vehicles which aren't compliant with the requirements.

Will bet dollar to donuts that $82 will balloon to $500 or more by then

Quote
We´re living through a crisis in roadway deaths,' Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said while speaking about the change. 'We need to do something about it.'

Although around 90 percent of new vehicles have the automatic braking standard now under a voluntary agreement with automakers, there are currently no performance requirements meaning some systems are less effective.

The new regulations set standards for vehicles to automatically stop and avoid hitting other vehicles or pedestrians, even at night.

Buttigieg, 42, said it will save 362 lives per year, prevent about 24,000 injuries and save billions in property damage.

Everything is a crisis to these people

Pump the brakes! US safety regulator announces HUGE change to all new cars and trucks
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13367113/new-cars-trucks-improve-brakes-safety.html
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MechAg94

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2024, 03:10:42 PM »
Great.  Because some people won't pay attention while driving, we will put in more automated systems that will encourage people not to pay attention while driving. 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2024, 03:13:18 PM »
Great.  Because some people won't pay attention while driving, we will put in more automated systems that will encourage people not to pay attention while driving. 

This. Oh so very much this.

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2024, 03:24:19 PM »
Who bought stock in Bosch and other ABS system manufacturers, and drafted this bill?
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Ben

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2024, 03:43:50 PM »
I am perhaps confused. Are there now two kinds of ABS? The anti-skid one that I'm familiar with and have, and another one that apparently uses sensors to spot pedestrians, etc.?

The article says "90% of vehicles have ABS". Are they confusing the two? I was completely unaware that the latter type was standard on new cars, and certainly not to a "90% level". I had thought "smart sensors" like that were part of self-driving cars and other prototypes. I may have seen commercials at one point for maybe Volvo or someone, where the car backs out of the driveway with a blindspot and autostops before it hits a kid. But again, I thought that it was a not common option.
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WLJ

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2024, 03:55:50 PM »
I am perhaps confused. Are there now two kinds of ABS? The anti-skid one that I'm familiar with and have, and another one that apparently uses sensors to spot pedestrians, etc.?

The article says "90% of vehicles have ABS". Are they confusing the two? I was completely unaware that the latter type was standard on new cars, and certainly not to a "90% level". I had thought "smart sensors" like that were part of self-driving cars and other prototypes. I may have seen commercials at one point for maybe Volvo or someone, where the car backs out of the driveway with a blindspot and autostops before it hits a kid. But again, I thought that it was a not common option.

Didn't even think about it at the time but the article may be confusing the two systems
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WLJ

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2024, 03:57:17 PM »
Great.  Because some people won't pay attention while driving, we will put in more automated systems that will encourage people not to pay attention while driving.

Then they'll issue another mandate for something to fix that crisis
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Perd Hapley

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2024, 04:25:14 PM »
I may be mis-remembering, but I thought automobile-related deaths were on the decline. Isn't that (along with some tricknology) why they can now claim guns are the leading cause of death for children?
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WLJ

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2024, 04:27:39 PM »
I may be mis-remembering, but I thought automobile-related deaths were on the decline. Isn't that (along with some tricknology) why they can now claim guns are the leading cause of death for children?

It's a CRISIS
That means you're not allowed to question it.
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dogmush

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2024, 04:46:58 PM »
I am perhaps confused. Are there now two kinds of ABS? The anti-skid one that I'm familiar with and have, and another one that apparently uses sensors to spot pedestrians, etc.?

The article says "90% of vehicles have ABS". Are they confusing the two? I was completely unaware that the latter type was standard on new cars, and certainly not to a "90% level". I had thought "smart sensors" like that were part of self-driving cars and other prototypes. I may have seen commercials at one point for maybe Volvo or someone, where the car backs out of the driveway with a blindspot and autostops before it hits a kid. But again, I thought that it was a not common option.

Automatic Braking systems, i.e. systems that stop the car by itself if they see something coming (as a group: Automated Emergency Braking Systems, AEBS), are pretty common on new cars.  I could very well see them at 90% market saturation. 

A quick look at the wiki shows they are already mandatory in Japan and the EU  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_emergency_braking_system#As_a_mandatory_feature) so there's probably quite a bit of bleedover from those markets.  I noticed that the Dacia Declaration Day posted in the Vehicle Shopping thread had AEBS as a feature listed even at the £14,000 version.  Mrs. Mush's Bronco Sport has it.  At least I assume it does, because it freaks the *expletive deleted*ck out if someone stops short in front of you.  I've never let it go long enough to see if the truck would stop on it's own.

Tuco

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2024, 07:22:56 PM »
I rented a Ford Expedition with the system dogmush described.  Had no idea until trying to pass a log truck northbound into Island Park ID. It's a 55mph 10+ mile uphill grade. Log truck was going 20-25 mph. I had few cars behind, and no oppposing traffic in sight, hell it may have been a passing lane? Anyway it was my turn to pass. I looked all around, stood on it, the Ford downshifted and I began to pass the logger.  I must have been too close to its back bumper because with my nose just over the line the Expedition decided "No Go" and slammed on its brakes. I thought the transmission locked up.   Apart from the suprise, I pissed off the guy behind me enough that he passed us both.
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Northwoods

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2024, 08:35:28 PM »
I despise the AEB system in every car I've driven that's had it.  It triggers at inappropriate times far too often.
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griz

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2024, 09:31:49 PM »
I despise the AEB system in every car I've driven that's had it.  It triggers at inappropriate times far too often.

Yep, me too.  And, at least in mine, it comes on every time I start the car, so I have to remember to turn it off.  Nothing is as startling as having the car drop anchor for an imaginary danger.

By the way, regarding the "crisis".  NHTSA estimates it will cost $354 million per year to save 362 lives.  Every life is valuable, but I'll bet we could save many more lives for less than a million dollars apiece.  Just as a for instance, about that number of drivers die every year because of cell phones.  They could require an over the air software fix that disabled phones while moving.
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tokugawa

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2024, 12:56:01 AM »
So how many will the new system kill due to unexpected braking?
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griz

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2024, 07:30:32 AM »
Just a random thought:  Do the police have to turn off that system to do the ramming that they do?
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dogmush

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2024, 07:35:15 AM »
I'm impressed by some of you.  I'm a pretty aggressive driver and I don't think I've ever got to the point the car braked itself.  (Maybe once or twice the car hit the brakes as my foot was coming down on the pedal)  My 335i had the system as well so I've been driving vehicles with AEBS for a while now.

I've gotten the flashing light and beep-beep-beep, but the braking seems pretty late in my cars.  Heck, the Bronco Sport has the Auto Cruise COntrol that stops at lights, and I tend to think it keeps the speed up a little longer than needed, then brakes hard.  I often find myself reaching for the brake to kill cruise control just before the truck finally decides to slow down.

Ben

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2024, 07:40:22 AM »
Yep, me too.  And, at least in mine, it comes on every time I start the car, so I have to remember to turn it off. 

So do all the current systems have an "off" switch? Because I would certainly worry about situations like Tuco had. I could certainly see that leading to surprised people overreacting in either braking or steering. The closest I've come to it is a rental car I had a couple of years ago that had that adaptive cruise control. I didn't know about it until it started adjusting. Luckily it made it's first adjustment based on the speed of the guy in front of me so I could figure out what was going on, and it was a fairly smooth adjustment. The second adjustment was with someone passing me on the right, who I guess got too close to me. That freaked me out a little. I don't think it ever activated outside of cruise control in the couple of days I had it.

If the current systems have an "off" switch, I wonder if that will be the same with this new standard?
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dogmush

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2024, 08:40:06 AM »
I think they are more like modern traction control.  You can adjust the sensitivity, but you can't really turn them off.

Ben

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2024, 08:56:24 AM »
I think they are more like modern traction control.  You can adjust the sensitivity, but you can't really turn them off.

Is that a change that I missed too? Maybe what is "off" isn't really off, but I'm pretty sure that I can completely deactivate the traction control on my 2014 4Runner. There's tons of videos about "getting unstuck" procedures where that's the first thing you do. Maybe that has changed in newer models?
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HankB

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2024, 09:32:49 AM »
My new 4Runner has that auto braking system - so far it's activated ONCE and that was only AFTER I was already braking for the traffic in front of me. I'm not sure if it added brake force or if the warning just popped up on the dash.

I think the systems are radar based, so I wonder if putting foil over the antenna would disable it if you couldn't do it from the setup menus inside?
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Pb

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2024, 09:38:34 AM »
I may be mis-remembering, but I thought automobile-related deaths were on the decline.

Automobile deaths shot up with the George Floyd nonesense, especially among black people driving without a liscense.  Speculation is that police stopped pulling over black people for traffic infractions.

HankB

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2024, 10:17:09 AM »
Automobile deaths shot up with the George Floyd nonesense, especially among black people driving without a liscense.  Speculation is that police stopped pulling over black people for traffic infractions.
In Austin, TX, they call it "De-Policing" and they began doing it well before the "defund the police" nonsense because someone noticed that certain groups were being ticketed disproportionately to their population numbers. (Pointing out that they were offending at a higher rate than other groups was considered irrelevant, distracting, and, of course, racist.)
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Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
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dogmush

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2024, 11:29:10 AM »
Is that a change that I missed too? Maybe what is "off" isn't really off, but I'm pretty sure that I can completely deactivate the traction control on my 2014 4Runner. There's tons of videos about "getting unstuck" procedures where that's the first thing you do. Maybe that has changed in newer models?

I think it depends a lot on the individual make/model, but a WHOLE lot of "Traction Control Off"  buttons are really "allow slightly more wheel spin" buttons.  Especially when TSC is tied into Vehicle Stability Control systems, completely turning them off is not always possible.  On Toyota's specifically I don't know how they implement it, and for that matter, short of hooking up a laptop and monitoring wheel speed sensors and individual wheel braking and diff slipping commands from the computer, I'm not sure how you would know for sure you had actually disabled it.

My new 4Runner has that auto braking system - so far it's activated ONCE and that was only AFTER I was already braking for the traffic in front of me. I'm not sure if it added brake force or if the warning just popped up on the dash.

I think the systems are radar based, so I wonder if putting foil over the antenna would disable it if you couldn't do it from the setup menus inside?

This would also depend on the specific implementation.  Some are RADAR based, some are Camera based, some combine the two, and some probably use the ultrasonic parking sensors as well.  As far as disabling it by killing a sensor, depending on the programming maybe it'll work, or maybe it'll put the car in limp mode until you get it fixed.  I would also be pretty leery of purposly disabling safety systems on a vehicle and driving it around.  Seems like a good way to get sued, and unlike the aholes running around without insurance I have assets to lose.

griz

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2024, 12:34:49 PM »
I'm impressed by some of you.  I'm a pretty aggressive driver and I don't think I've ever got to the point the car braked itself.  (Maybe once or twice the car hit the brakes as my foot was coming down on the pedal)  My 335i had the system as well so I've been driving vehicles with AEBS for a while now.

I've gotten the flashing light and beep-beep-beep, but the braking seems pretty late in my cars.  Heck, the Bronco Sport has the Auto Cruise COntrol that stops at lights, and I tend to think it keeps the speed up a little longer than needed, then brakes hard.  I often find myself reaching for the brake to kill cruise control just before the truck finally decides to slow down.

I'm not talking about the car braking for a car stopping in front of you.  Like you, I've had it beep* at me but never had it activate for that reason.  What's a problem to me is when it "sees" a car that it can't tell isn't in your lane.  The typical (again, for my car) scenario is when the road is bending right and a slight rise prevents the sensors from seeing the lane markings turning that way.  So when it sees an oncoming car it thinks it's in my lane even though it's obvious to my human eye that it's not a problem at all.  It brakes hard enough that it will wake up a sleeping spouse.

*It's paranoid enough that it will sometimes beep when I'm approaching stopped cars at a light as I'm coasting up on them after the light has turned green.  Even though the cars move out in plenty of time so that I don't even have to brake, it still beeps.
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dogmush

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Re: To combat a "crisis in roadway deaths "
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2024, 12:53:35 PM »
^^^

I've never had that happen.  I suppose implementation and software matters quite a bit, which makes sense.  I've used the BMW and Ford systems quite a bit, and Nissan's on a longer term rental car.

Now there's another thing to check for good implemntation during test drives.