Author Topic: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI  (Read 458 times)

Ben

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Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« on: June 18, 2024, 07:50:43 AM »
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K Frame

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2024, 07:58:47 AM »
What? Only $750 a year?

Why not $7,500 a year?

Why not $75,000 a year?

MAKE THE CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE AND REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH!
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zahc

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2024, 12:47:06 PM »
They'll do just about anything to avoid the one thing that works: taxing land rents.
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WLJ

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2024, 12:48:23 PM »
What? Only $750 a year?

Why not $7,500 a year?

Why not $75,000 a year?

MAKE THE CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE AND REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH!

7,500 next year
75,000 the year after that
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PEfarmer

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2024, 02:31:12 PM »
They'll do just about anything to avoid the one thing that works: taxing land rents.

Wait.. What?

Northwoods

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2024, 03:01:09 PM »
They'll do just about anything to avoid the one thing that works: taxing land rents.

All taxes, except retail sales tax, excise tax, and import duties should be barred by constitutional amendment.
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PEfarmer

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2024, 03:25:11 PM »
All taxes, except retail sales tax, excise tax, and import duties should be barred by constitutional amendment.

Agreed.  While I hate income tax, I find any sort of property tax to be especially repugnant.  Of all the taxes, retail sales tax offends me the least.

HankB

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2024, 05:06:51 PM »
There's interest among some blue states in continuing to tax former residents (and presumably corporations) AFTER they leave. AFAIK they've only met with limited success, and only with those who still have SOME connection - property, a business, or other investments - remaining in the state they fled. But they want MORE. Sort of like the IRS wants people who permanently leave the USA and renounce citizenship to keep filing income tax forms for years (I read 10 years) after they emigrate.
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Northwoods

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2024, 06:04:52 PM »
There's interest among some blue states in continuing to tax former residents (and presumably corporations) AFTER they leave. AFAIK they've only met with limited success, and only with those who still have SOME connection - property, a business, or other investments - remaining in the state they fled. But they want MORE. Sort of like the IRS wants people who permanently leave the USA and renounce citizenship to keep filing income tax forms for years (I read 10 years) after they emigrate.

CA has tried this.  They also have tried to levy an extra tax on home sales when you don't buy another house within the state.
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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2024, 06:24:57 PM »
CA has tried this.  They also have tried to levy an extra tax on home sales when you don't buy another house within the state.


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Boomhauer

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2024, 08:10:06 PM »
I’ll tell you what you can tax alright…

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zahc

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2024, 01:59:38 AM »
Wait.. What?

Taxes on land rents (rents on any monopoly or inelastic natural resource) are the only tax that doesn't violate the non-aggression principle. All other taxes are a claim by the State on what we believe is not theirs...if the state has a claim on a portion of your labor, you are at least in some degree a slave. If the state has a claim on some portion of your property or capital, and can repossesses that property if you don't pay the tax, you don't really own that property. Individual liberty is pure illusion as long as income, wealth, or property taxes exist. The state taxing land rents, on the other hand, is simply the state taking what was theirs to begin with, as land rents flow from the State and not from any individual or joint labor or capital. Thus taxing land rents is the only tax compatible with libertarian ideals, we could say the only ethical tax.

But even if you don't care about the liberty or ethics implications of taxation, taxes on land rents are also the only tax that is perfectly efficient and causes zero market distortion, since they remove rent from the economy and rent is by definition non-productive at the very best and always distortionary in actual practice, making the tax either neutral or beneficial. Also, the only tax that requires no bureaucracy to administer, and thanks to standard principles of economics, also happens to be the only tax required at all, as all other taxes can be replaced by them in accordance with Ricardo's law of rent. All this is widely agreed by economists for hundreds of years, and is why Milton Friedman called land value taxes the "least bad tax". He undersold it, as rental value taxes are objectively beneficial, but "least bad" is the best you'll get out of Milton. But more germaine to the topic at hand, location value taxes are also the only tax capable in principle of funding a UBI. All other taxes simply redistribute, but worse because they cause deadweight economic losses, but even worse still because they require a bureaucracy to administer which is even more loss. It's not just that society can't get ahead with a UBI funded by income, sales or wealth taxes, it's a certainly that society will be worse off, to a degree without any limit. Most smart people know this and oppose UBI, but most people unfortunately don't understand land value taxes.

It is pretty much stupidity to try to fund a UBI from lossy tax sources like income taxes. It is possible, or even net beneficial to fund a UBI by taxing rents, as proposed by Henry George in the 1800s. Unfortunately the same type of people who want to push UBI in the modern world aren't the same type of people to have the economic intelligence to comprehend Georgism, so their UBI schemes need to be stopped like a child with a hatchet needs to be stopped... before they hurt themselves.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 02:27:50 AM by zahc »
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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MechAg94

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2024, 09:09:15 AM »
Just to define things, by "taxing rents", are you talking about only taxing income from the use of the land?  Or do you mean only income from rent or lease of the land?  Or the value of the land?  I feel that definition needs to be expanded a bit.

Examples:
Renting the property?  Tax
Hunting lease?  Tax
Selling firewood cut from the land?  No tax
The land is worth $50K.  No tax
Building parts for sale in a shop on the land.  No tax

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Ben

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2024, 09:48:33 AM »
Taxes on land rents (rents on any monopoly or inelastic natural resource)

Like mech, I have no idea what this means. I'm interested in your POV, but this is a very confusing and ambiguous terminology. I too, would be interested in real world examples  of "land rents" and "inelastic natural resources". I'm also unsure what taxing monopolies has to do with "land rents"?
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PEfarmer

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2024, 03:45:52 PM »
Add me to the list of those not quite understanding what you mean here.  It seems to be more of a screed against rents in general than a position on taxation.  Is the position that you're taking that all rents (as conventionally understood, as in I rent a house, or I rent farmland from the owner) inherently bad?  Or is it something more esoteric like "rent-seeking behavior" as related to politicians?  If it's the former, I'd argue vehemently that it would be nowhere near capable of funding government, even if gov was limited to constitutionally authorized endeavors, much less if it were meant to fund something far beyond that such as our current albatross, or even worse, a UBI.

JTHunter

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2024, 09:59:20 PM »
Any way to get funds so they can cover their "excesses".  :facepalm:
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zxcvbob

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2024, 11:34:27 PM »
Add me to the list of those not quite understanding what you mean here.  It seems to be more of a screed against rents in general than a position on taxation.  Is the position that you're taking that all rents (as conventionally understood, as in I rent a house, or I rent farmland from the owner) inherently bad?  Or is it something more esoteric like "rent-seeking behavior" as related to politicians?  If it's the former, I'd argue vehemently that it would be nowhere near capable of funding government, even if gov was limited to constitutionally authorized endeavors, much less if it were meant to fund something far beyond that such as our current albatross, or even worse, a UBI.
I didn't understand it either, but "rents" has a different definition in economics.  Here's how Investopedia describes it (I think that's a good reference but not sure) Using good old fashioned quotation marks instead of the quote tags so it doesn't disappear if someone replies to this

"Economic rent is an amount of money earned that exceeds that which is economically or socially necessary. This can occur, for example, when a buyer working to attain a good or service that is considered exclusive makes an offer prior to hearing what a seller considers an acceptable price. Market imperfections thus lead to the rise of economic rent; it would not exist if markets were perfect, since competitive pressures would drive down prices."

The "socially necessary" part seems ripe for abuse by those imposing the tax.
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zahc

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2024, 10:52:56 PM »
The definition of rent is pretty straightforward. Did you earn it in exchange for a labor or service? That's wages. Did you earn it by employing, deploying, lending, or multiplying capital? That's called interest.  Did you earn it by any means besides the above, especially by exploiting a monopoly or special privilege granted by government? That's rent, and it's almost non-existent in free markets, but is the dominant cause of stagnation, suffering, and inequality in "advanced" economies ("advanced" in quotes because historically entire classes existed by collecting rent; this was supposed to have been eliminated by a government where all were equal under the law and without special privilege, under what Thomas Jefferson called "pure republicanism".  But he failed to appreciate, as Henry George later did, that there cannot be both equality under the law and capitalization of land. Jefferson didn't live to see industrialization, or he would have doubled down on the land politics he already held, which were essentially that of the French Physiocrats. "It is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state…."--Thomas Jefferson . Unfortunately it was in fact slightly too soon, because America was still a frontier then, and rent more or less irrelevant, as rent cannot be imposed on a good as long as more of that good (namely land) can be got at the margins, per Ricardo's law of Rent. Many people think of land politics as being an agrarian topic, but paradoxically it's urbanization and industrialization that catapults rents).
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Pb

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2024, 07:02:04 PM »
I am a understanding you correctly, that the only fair tax is a single one on land (irrespective of any improvements made of the land)?

I think that was Henry George's idea.

I actually lived in a town inspired by Henry George's philosophy for a little while (Fairhope, AL).

HankB

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Re: Oregon Looking to Tax Corps to Pay for $750/year UBI
« Reply #19 on: Today at 09:18:44 AM »
Let's see, if the lefties in Oregon go through with this, they probably won't demand proof-of-identity . . . time to establish HankB as an unemployed Oregonian with no other income.

As well as HankC, HankD, HankE . . .  >:D
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