Buck Shot

[HankB]

Besides shotgun and grenade launcher flechette rounds, the Army also experimented with flechette rifles. The flechette would have a hardened point to enhance penetration, but the body of the flechette was softer and would bend into a fish hook shape upon impact and increase terminal effect. Some sources claim this was not "Hague accords" friendly causing termination of the program, other reasons given for program termination were poor accuracy. Whatever improvements WERE realized were deemed insufficient to merit replacing the M16 family of weapons.

[K Frame]

The only flechette rounds that saw any useful impact in Vietnam were the so-called Beehive rounds developed for 90mm, 105mm, and I THINK 240mm.

The difference, though, was that the flechettes developed for artillery delivery were substantially larger and heavier than those developed for shotgun or grenade launcher use.

I seem to recall those being somewhere around .30 caliber in diameter with a weight of around 120-150 grains. There was a lot more energy there to do damage.

[MechAg94]

I can't see 12 gauge flachette rounds being useful until the flachettes are made of tungsten or something heavy.  Not much better than using steel bird shot at distance. 

One round I haven't seen testing on is some Winchester 12 gauge that had buckshot pellets that were partially cut in half.  Supposed to break up into more fragments when it hits. 

[230RN]

^^^^, all.

Yeah, thanks, kind of what I figured except for the legal aspects Northwoods pointed out  --I didn't think that far ahead and just kind of dismissed it.

On the other hand, shotgun-wise,I guess even an ounce of water going at over 1000 f/s will have knockdown power.  *

I always figured high number of pellets = good, big size of pellets = good, so best compromise was #4 buck.  This, independent of gauge or charge weight, within reasonable mechanical limits and other "what ifs."

Terry, 230RN


*ETA 972 ft-lb, to save you the trouble.

[JTHunter]

About 15 years ago I bought a packet of three 12 gauge flechette rounds but never fired one.  I dissected one and without testing, I figured they wouldn't really fly point first reliably so they're never seen the inside of a 12ga chamber.  I see they're still on the market, but I wonder if this is because of the gimmick factor or their real effectiveness.

Anybody ever use them?

Terry, 230RN

I vaguely remember seeing a video on those things many years ago.  Because of their light weight, they were lousy at penetrating anything, even a bare gel block.  IIRC, the gel block's end looked like a bad game of "darts" as some were "point in (barely) and some had tumbled and went in sideways and were just on the surface.
There is another shell I saw called "Dragonfire" (which ILL-ANNOY has banned) that makes spurt of flame for about half a second and 8-10' long.

[MechAg94]

Federal Shorty 00 buck and #4 buck. Shockwave. Clear Ballistics Gelatin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HickaAVzBH4

Testing of the short 1-3/4" Federal buck shot in gel.  Good information if you know someone who can't handle full 12 gauge recoil.

[K Frame]

Does anyone know of a maker of No. 4 buck rounds that does a top wad roll crimp instead of a folded crimp?

I have 00 buck rounds from S&B that have a top wad roll crimp, which results in a hull that can fit an extra layer of 00 pellets -- 12 instead of the usual 9.

I figure that a similar No. 4 round would have enough extra room for up to 32 or so pellets.


Hum... well it looks like S&B also makes No 4 buck with a top wad roll crimp in 2 3/4". Interesting. Now to find some.

OK, Ammoman.com has it. But, they're only putting 27 pellets in the shell... only 3 more than what Winchester & Remington puts in their fold crimped shells.

Not sure only 3 extra pellets is worth it. I think I'll just stick with my Winchester & Remington No. 4.

[MechAg94]

How much would the extra shot slow down the velocity?

[dogmush]

Why just partisans?  Looking at content out of Ukraine, the regular forces are using tons of little drones with grenades or suicide drones with bigger charges.  I saw one video showing they identified trenches feeding into a tunnel/bunker that they couldn't get grenades into.  They flew a suicide drone in with a larger charge, landed on top, and blew a big hole and collapsed the tunnel. 

Looks like it is going to be a regular part of warfare going forward unless there is some serious hacking or area denial developments.  I assume the drones will get better as the big defense industries get their own product lines.  I guess we are seeing some of that already.

I said that post was for partisans because regular forces (at least US ones) have other ways to counter drones than shooting them with shotguns.  That's going to end up being a more partisans/asymmetric warfare solution.

And while you don't need heavy shot because the drones are pretty fragile, it will still be a challenge.  They tend to loiter at higher altitudes than most birdshot/bird/clay engagements, and they move a LOT faster.  I'm nowhere near a good enough shotgunner to tell you what shot size/choke you need but I can tell you you are looking at a target no more than 2' in size, maybe smaller, 300-500 foot away and capable of 60-80 mph, and very abrupt direction changes.  Those videos you see from Ukraine of a dude being chased are more of a final approach than how they hunt.

I can tell you that the Army played a little with trying our current issue shotguns and shells against small drones and decided that was not a great answer.

You are correct though, these things are going to be a part of warfare going forward both near peer and asymmetric.

[K Frame]

How much would the extra shot slow down the velocity?

Unknown.

I THINK the S&B 00 shells that I have claim 1200 fps. Don't know what barrel length, though.

All I do know is that they kick like mad out of my S&W 3000.

I would NOT want to fire them out of my Ithaca.

[JTHunter]

Unknown.

I THINK the S&B 00 shells that I have claim 1200 fps. Don't know what barrel length, though.

All I do know is that they kick like mad out of my S&W 3000.

I would NOT want to fire them out of my Ithaca.

FYI - as previously mentioned, my SxS has double triggers.  I have fired both barrels with those 3" shells with the gun held 2 ways - 1 at the shoulder and 2 at my hip - actually braced against the hip where the leg meets the torso.
I also don't recommend the shoulder, even if you are prepared and leaning into the target.
With the stock against my hip, my body was better able to absorb the recoil and the gun was at a better level for hitting you attacker's groin.

[K Frame]

Years ago I fired a slug out of my Ithaca Featherlite.

HUGE mistake.