KelTec Sub2000: Now in 5.7

[WLJ]

This is leading me down a rabbit hole.
There was a prototype "Grease" gun in 30 Carbine, the T29 https://dockeryarmory.com/t29/

[HeroHog]

I "need" another 9mm Glock Sub-2K...

(my 1st Sub-2K, 9mm Glock type, series I)

[Boomhauer]

Why the increase in 5.7 popularity these days? Recoil? The perception of armor piercing?

We went gun shopping recently for my wife to buy her first pistol and there were several 5.7 handguns even at places like Academy and Cabela’s.

[K Frame]

While I'm with you on that it would require pretty much a complete redesign
S2Ks are blowback and you would have to change the action to something other than that to handle 30C and that would also complicate the way they fold. Plus a 30C capable magazine would be too long to fit in the grip as is.

Doesn't mean you couldn't make a S2K like gun in 30C though it would require pretty much a new from the ground up design

Oh I know. It wouldn't really be feasible. A full blowback version would be harsh and a lot heavier, taking away much of the charm of the Sub2K.

A redesign to a locked action would likely do much the same thing -- take away the charm (and likely add a lot to the price).

That's why I mentioned the shortened .30 Carbine round I remember from the 1960s or so. If I'm estimating the ballistics correctly for it, you'd have a 110 grain bullet moving at around 1,300 fps.

That would give around 400-450 foot pounds at the muzzle and should be just inside blockback action territory.

Of course, that's not much more energy that some of the 9mm loads available today, but it could give you more ammo in a more compact magazine...

The interesting question, though, would be the magazine/grip. Would it allow a comfortable grip while still having the mag through the grip?

It would be a bit deeper front to back, so it might not be nearly as comfortable as the Sub2Ks chambered for pistol cartridges.

[K Frame]

This is leading me down a rabbit hole.
There was a prototype "Grease" gun in 30 Carbine, the T29 https://dockeryarmory.com/t29/

There were also prototype Smith & Wesson N frames in .30 Carbine and, allegedly, even one or two in K frame.

The N frames were absolutely horrific to fire because of the blast and fireball. And they shot themselves loose pretty quickly.

That likely stopped any thought of adapting the round to the K frame dead in its tracks.

[WLJ]

Oh I know. It wouldn't really be feasible. A full blowback version would be harsh and a lot heavier, taking away much of the charm of the Sub2K.

A redesign to a locked action would likely do much the same thing -- take away the charm (and likely add a lot to the price).

That's why I mentioned the shortened .30 Carbine round I remember from the 1960s or so. If I'm estimating the ballistics correctly for it, you'd have a 110 grain bullet moving at around 1,300 fps.

That would give around 400-450 foot pounds at the muzzle and should be just inside blockback action territory.

Of course, that's not much more energy that some of the 9mm loads available today, but it could give you more ammo in a more compact magazine...

The interesting question, though, would be the magazine/grip. Would it allow a comfortable group while still having the mag through the grip?

It would be a bit deeper front to back, so it might not be nearly as comfortable as the Sub2Ks chambered for pistol cartridges.

But still your fault I got stuck in 30 Carbine rabbit hole last night. 
I've long loved the round and feel it's being overlooked nowadays

[WLJ]

There were also prototype Smith & Wesson N frames in .30 Carbine and, allegedly, even one or two in K frame.

The N frames were absolutely horrific to fire because of the blast and fireball. And they shot themselves loose pretty quickly.

That likely stopped any thought of adapting the round to the K frame dead in its tracks.

Ruger has a Blackhawk in 30C

Not a revolver but I remember Gun Jesus looked at a 30 Carbine Thompson
Of course it had all the problems of the regular Thompson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW-IjtiVthc

[K Frame]

What? I'm responsible for YOUR poor life choices?

You a Democrat or sumpin?

[K Frame]

Ruger has a Blackhawk in 30C

Not a revolver but I remember Gun Jesus looked at a 30 Carbine Thompson
Of course it had all the problems of the regular Thompson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW-IjtiVthc

Yes they do. The Blackhawk took advantage of some of the advances in metallurgy that came in the wake of World War II while S&W's N frame design was still solidly in the pre-war era. IIRC the .30 Carbine version was the New Model Blackhawk, which itself was a bit beefier by design.
The N frame wasn't; it was a stock 1920s/1930s design when it was chambered in .30 Carbine.

A New Model Backhawk in .30 would be around 48 ounces in weight, I think, depending on the barrel length. A WW II era N frame would be 38 to 40 ounces, depending on the barrel.

I've fired a .30 Blackhawk. Unpleasant isn't the word for it. The recoil is negligible, but the blast is REALLY unpleasant.

[WLJ]

One of my favorite guns to shoot especially in indoor ranges 
Produces one heck of a fireball

Automag III in 30 Carbine
Note: Top photo from wiki as I don't have a good picture of mine at hand, bottom from 1911 forum.

[WLJ]

Fired off a round at the indoor range near me and the range went quiet firing wise and then I hear some guy yell out "what the hell was that?"
I've found if I can find mil-surplus it produces a bigger fireball than most commercial ammo.
It's surprisingly soft shooting despite the blast and fireball. Really a pussy cat recoil wise.

[K Frame]

I fired the Automag III on NRA's indoor test range when I worked American Rifleman.

Tight 25 yard range. LOTS of baffling material on the walls, ceiling, everywhere.

It didn't help much.

I also fired the Automag IV in 10mm Magnum the same day. A lot more recoil, but the blast was nothing in comparison.

[K Frame]

Fired off a round at the indoor range near me and the range went quiet firing wise for a moment and then I hear some guy yell out "what the hell was that?"
I've found if I can find mil-surplus it produces a bigger fireball than most commercial ammo.
It's surprisingly soft shooting despite the blast and fireball. Really a pussy cat recoil wise.

Closest I ever came to quieting the range was at NRA's commercial range (after my tenure at Rifleman).

I had my 4" .41 Magnum and a box of Remington 210-gr. SJSP.

I don't know what it was about those rounds but the bark from them was all out of proportion. Yeah, it was a .41 Mag., but it was really barking more like an .82 Mag.

None of my full-power handloads ever came close to that kind of bark and blast.

[WLJ]

I also fired the Automag IV in 10mm Magnum the same day. A lot more recoil, but the blast was nothing in comparison.

Rifle powder vs pistol powder in a handgun.

[WLJ]

Why the increase in 5.7 popularity these days? Recoil? The perception of armor piercing?

Definite yes on the former. Many find it easier to control than many rounds
On the second maybe since you see 5.7 being touted by some as being armor piecing but trouble is we can't buy the armor piercing version of the ammo but the idea persists in people's minds and you can't blame the gun manufacturers for taking advantage of that.

[K Frame]

Rifle powder vs pistol powder in a handgun.

Uhm... no, not really.

Original military loads for the .30 Carbine were WC820, which after the war Hogdon sold as H110 for magnum pistol and small bore rifle.

Virtually all .30 Carbine loads today use similar powders (IMR 4227, W296, H110, etc.) that are applicable to magnum handgunss and rounds like the .30 Carbine and .22 Hornet, .22 Jet, etc.

Those same powders were used in the very limited number of factory production 10mm Magnum loads that IMI cobbled together to go with its pistols when it went out for testing.

It's been over 30 years (and I'd have to dig into my cartridge collection for the one fired case I have), but IIRC the 10mm magnum we tested at NRA was loaded with W296 in Starline cases.

The different is chamber pressure. The .30 Carbine works at, IIRC, 42,000 psi, the 10mm Magnum no more than 35,000 psi.

[WLJ]

The fragility of memory.
I actually used to reload 30C but have since forgotten everything about it since that was ~35 years ago.
Sigh

[K Frame]

GEDOFFAYEROWNLAWNYAPUNKBASTARD!

[dogmush]

Definite yes on the former. Many find it easier to control than many rounds
On the second maybe since you see 5.7 being touted by some as being armor piecing but trouble is we can't buy the armor piercing version of the ammo but the idea persists in people's minds and you can't blame the gun manufacturers for taking advantage of that.

It's worth remembering that "Armor Piercing" meant something different to most people in 1993 than it does today.

Even full choice SS190 or SS193 only defeats up to IIIA. In 1993 that was the standard NATO infantry vest and 99% of all cop's vests.  Today Armor is a very different beast.

Not only are there 50 million SBR AR's (excuse me, AR Pistols) throwing 62gr green tip around, most everyone that bothers with a vest wears 3+ STP or Lvl4 hard plates. 5.7 ain't defeating that no matter what bullet is in it.

So take "AP" claims with a grain of salt. FWIW, my understanding is the ammo isn't illegal to sell, FN just chooses not to. So if you want to, it can actually be found in the US market.