Author Topic: Starlink on navy ships  (Read 695 times)

zahc

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Starlink on navy ships
« on: September 04, 2024, 10:26:48 AM »
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2024/09/03/how-navy-chiefs-conspired-to-get-themselves-illegal-warship-wi-fi/

Quote
enlisted leaders among the littoral combat ship Manchester’s gold crew ...  installed and secretly used their very own Wi-Fi network during a deployment, according to a scathing internal investigation obtained by Navy Times

This seems like such a bad idea it's shocking that anyone thought about it for more than a second, much less conspired to do it.

Interesting thought: how long until enemy spies use starlink for spying?
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RocketMan

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2024, 11:11:42 AM »
"Marrero’s background is in Navy intelligence, and she earned a master’s degree in business administration with a concentration in information security and digital management..."  How the chief could even have thought this was a good idea given her background is astounding to me.  I think she got off easy, especially since she was the senior enlisted person on the ship.
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BobR

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2024, 11:38:45 AM »
IMO, even more egregious than the actual set up was the fact the entire Chief's Mess was in on it and they all must have figured it was all right. They knew it was wrong and yet they continued the behavior, to the point of naming their network after a printer. The crew knew which I am sure had plenty of rumors going and fostered a lack of respect for the Chiefs onboard, not to mention the Chief's must have forgotten their roll in the scheme of the Navy. I am hoping every one of them got dinged on their annual evals and what ever pay grade they are now is as far as they will ever go. The E8 (no longer deserves the title of Chief) is very lucky to have not been reduced in rank even further. Had it been me she would be back in dungarees (or whatever they wear these days) with no hope of ever wearing khaki again. To think they threw away their careers just so they could have facebook and watch movies among other thing is mind boggling.
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« Last Edit: September 04, 2024, 01:03:56 PM by BobR »

HankB

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2024, 03:37:39 PM »
At least it only happened on an LCS - it would've been worse had it been on a ship that was actually intended to fight.
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French G.

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2024, 10:35:51 PM »
At least it only happened on an LCS - it would've been worse had it been on a ship that was actually intended to fight.

Shots fired. (But not too many, might sink the sad little thing.)

Re-reading Neptunes Inferno, crazy to think a few short wars ago we could conceal the sinking of multiple surface combatants for several months. Now we can't keep one E-3 getting pregnat a secret for a day. My last ship was 2008 and even then we had people with satphones, foreign SIMS when we got all littoral, all kinds of stuff. And EMCON was a huge deal. Anything exciting happened and it was immediate condition River City 1(No internet at all, immediate.) Lasted a few weeks at times.
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K Frame

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2024, 07:26:02 AM »
Given her actions both before and after this was discovered, it appears to me that she got off quite light.

Multiple bouts of lying during the investigation? She should have been kicked out of the service without an honorable discharge.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2024, 10:31:51 AM »
Given her actions both before and after this was discovered, it appears to me that she got off quite light.

Multiple bouts of lying during the investigation? She should have been kicked out of the service without an honorable discharge.

Agreed. Ideally, after some time in the brig.
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dogmush

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2024, 10:34:33 AM »
I wonder how many Starlink terminals quietly got dropped overboard this week.

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2024, 10:47:40 AM »
Without knowing how stuff works on a littoral combat ship, I'm kinda perplexed on how this wasn't caught almost immediately. The biggest gov ship I was on was ~250', a little more than half the length of the Manchester. In fairness, my team jumped all over the ship setting up our own antennas for stuff, or tying something into the ship's system, so there were always people crawling all over the decks, and if I were still doing that now, I don't think I would miss seeing a dish that said "property of Momcorp" on it.

From the image in the OP, this doesn't look like a "hidden" location. Are crew on an LCS generally limited to where they can go? It seems there would still be somebody(s) who had duties that would take them over most of the ship. Certainly some technicians just doing normal maintenance checks?
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dogmush

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2024, 11:17:31 AM »
Without knowing how stuff works on a littoral combat ship, I'm kinda perplexed on how this wasn't caught almost immediately. The biggest gov ship I was on was ~250', a little more than half the length of the Manchester. In fairness, my team jumped all over the ship setting up our own antennas for stuff, or tying something into the ship's system, so there were always people crawling all over the decks, and if I were still doing that now, I don't think I would miss seeing a dish that said "property of Momcorp" on it.

From the image in the OP, this doesn't look like a "hidden" location. Are crew on an LCS generally limited to where they can go? It seems there would still be somebody(s) who had duties that would take them over most of the ship. Certainly some technicians just doing normal maintenance checks?

The picture shows it on a surface that isn't a deck for walking on.  It's technically "aloft" even though it's not that high, and there are a bunch of other antennas on that deck/surface.  Going aloft usually takes some paperwork and planning for safety, and we (Army Watercraft) really try to avoid it underway, because there's a greater chance for falling or man overboard.  Looking at that spot in better pics of the ship, there's no rails or anything, so if someone was there and slipped, they are dangling by the safety lanyard, or in the water.  So it's very likely that wandering that deck isn't a normal part of anyone's day, especcially underway. 

Add to that the pics I can find online of the square Starlink Terminals, it doesn't look like they have any branding at all, so if anyone saw it, they just saw some white flat phased array antenna.  I assume they thought it went to someone else's system.  It would be interesting to hear what the Chief told whichever poor sailor got to go install it in the first place.  THAT sailor had to know what it was.

K Frame

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2024, 11:24:47 AM »
How the hell weren't the return signals to Starlink detected by the ships ELINT suite?

Aren't unverified/unknown/suspicious signals something that would show up during normal ship's security operations?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 11:59:40 AM by K Frame »
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Ben

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2024, 11:27:56 AM »
Going aloft usually takes some paperwork and planning for safety, and we (Army Watercraft) really try to avoid it underway,

That right there is interesting. So there's a good chance somebody had to do paperwork for access? Even if whoever signed off on it got duped, I'm guessing that not verifying the job is gonna be a big ding for them.
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MechAg94

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2024, 12:39:07 PM »
I have a Starlink at work that is supposed to be installed at some point.  Even if it had logos on it, I am sure someone could cover that up or paint it to match other equipment. 

On noticing it, it appears the chief lied to her commanders repeatedly about the wifi network even after being confronted about it. 
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dogmush

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2024, 01:59:42 PM »
That right there is interesting. So there's a good chance somebody had to do paperwork for access? Even if whoever signed off on it got duped, I'm guessing that not verifying the job is gonna be a big ding for them.

So obviously Army and Navy probably have different procedures for going aloft, but they should be reasonably close:  For like a "normal" going aloft, i.e. someone has to go up and do a particular thing, yes there will be a safety inspection, someone named as the safety, the person going aloft, and an OIC.  We have a checklist in out SOP, and also it will be annotated in the logbook by the watch officer. i.e. 1515 PFC Snuffy aloft on main mast to fix the widget antenna/ 1535 PFC Snuffy reports antenna repaired, AN/PRC-1000 energized to test widget antenna repair/ 1536 PFC Snuffy irradiated, suffers second degree burns/ 1550 PFC Snuffy off main mast, medic prescribes water and 800mg motrin, AN/PRC-1000 tested and Fully Mission Capable/ 1600 PFC Snuffy's burns determined to be not service related due his failure to secure power to AN/PRC-1000 before going aloft per ship's SOP.

Per the Nay Times however:
Quote
The Starlink dish was installed on the Manchster’s O-5 level weatherdeck during a “blanket” aloft period, which requires a sailor to hang high above or over the side of the ship.

During a “blanket” aloft, duties are not documented in the deck logs or the officer of the deck logs, according to the investigation.

A Blanket aloft is used when you have a bunch of stuff to do, by different departments, and you are getting it all done at once, and will be much less detailed.  Each person should still have a safety watching them, but the log entry might be more like: 1515 Blanket aloft called, 8 personnel aloft on 05 deck, main mast, fore mast, and hanger top to replace multiple nav lights, recalibrate widget antennas, paint four rust spots, install upgraded whatsit antenna for EWS./ 1600 Blanket aloft secured, all sailors safely down, all maintenance reported as complete.

We do that kind of thing because, as PFC Snuffy's tragic tale implies, you have to secure, and lock out/ tag out any system that radiates RF while people are aloft.  It's a PITA on my little landing craft, I can only imagine it's a 30 min procedure between the Bridge and CIC on something like an LCS, even in port.  So while you're shut down you try and get everything done aloft.

That said, the Navy Times article says they don't know who installed the antenna because the name was redacted.  Which implies the Navy knows damn well who it was.  and since they don't appear to be in trouble, I'm going to assume it was some poor Electronics Warfare E4 whose Chief along with the ship's CMC came to and said, "Hey, go up and put this on the 05, and run the wire through the spare through-deck fitting. Don't worry about where it goes."

Ben

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2024, 02:46:58 PM »
^^^

That was very good info. Thanks!
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French G.

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2024, 02:50:49 PM »
I have been on the side of aloft standing officer of the deck where you get blamed when someone gets microwaved and been the one 80 feet over the flight deck trying to not fall while clipped into something that looked like it was welded by a Chinese tiktok welder. The procedures are immense to keep someone from becoming cooked. Also poorly understood.  Not my normal job but I was asked to do a courtesy inspection before big navy showed up. I wasn't asked back. My report was about as immense  as their procedures.
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230RN

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2024, 04:53:24 PM »
Do things like "05" mean a deck level, and if so, what does the "O" stand for?

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BobR

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2024, 05:08:57 PM »
Do things like "05" mean a deck level, and if so, what does the "O" stand for?

Pardon my ignorance but I only get smarter when I display my ignorance.

Terry, 230RN

Main deck is always number 1. Anything above the main deck in preceded with a 0. So the O5 level is 5 decks above the main deck. Anything below the main deck is numbered consecutively 2,3, etc.  Decks that do not extend the entire length or width of the ship are referred to as levels.

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dogmush

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2024, 08:49:25 PM »
^^^To add to that, the "Main Deck" is the highest deck that extends all the way from stem to stern.

French G.

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2024, 11:27:52 PM »
On my carrier flight deck was 04 level. On the amphib it was 03. Hangar was the main deck.
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BobR

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2024, 12:41:55 AM »
On my carrier flight deck was 04 level. On the amphib it was 03. Hangar was the main deck.

That is how the Forrestal was. Hanger deck was main deck,  flight deck was O4, my berthing for 3 years was either O3 just fwd of  one of the arresting gear machinery rooms or O3 just below the catapult. I worked nights, I didn't sleep much during flight ops. 
 =|
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WLJ

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2024, 09:05:37 AM »
On American carriers up to the Forrestal class the hanger deck was the strength deck with the flight deck being superstructure built on top of that. With the Forrestal class the flight deck became the strength deck but naming traditions die hard. Now some may argue that on the Midways the flight deck was the strength deck since they had an armor flight deck but the flight deck as they were constructed was still basically superstructure which was a big reason why they where relatively easy to modify later on.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2024, 09:43:47 AM by WLJ »
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dogmush

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2024, 09:08:52 AM »
You'd have to ask a navel architect,  there's probably some estoric reason the flight deck isn't the main deck.

On my LCU, the "main deck" is actually two, because there's a half deck step down to the well deck, but it's easier to pretend that doesn't happen. So the 01 deck at the stern is a couple feet higher than the 01 fo''c'sle deck. 

ETA WLJ cross posted, but that's as good a theory as any.

K Frame

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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2024, 09:42:30 AM »
"You'd have to ask a navel architect,  there's probably some estoric reason the flight deck isn't the main deck."

My guess?

The first US carriers were conversions of either existing ships (Langley) or ships that were already designed and laid down (Lexington and Saratoga). The carrier part of the conversion was built above the existing main deck and was essentially a light-weight superstructure.

Additionally, in US design-built aircraft carriers up to the 1950s (not sure if it's still the case since the advent of fully armored deck designs) the main strength deck was the hangar deck, which made it the "main deck" in Naval terms.
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Re: Starlink on navy ships
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2024, 11:22:59 AM »
Our ship had birthing on 2 and I worked on 4 (Main Engine Room). 5 was the sea.
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