Heads Up: New residential HVAC refrigerant come Jan 01, 2025

[Brad Johnson]

Quick note to all.

If you been sitting on the fence about replacing an aging central AC system, might want to do it before Jan 01, 2025. That's when the new R-454B refrigerant requirement goes into effect. Not only is it not backwards compatible, the new equipment will have internal leak detection systems adding to complexity and cost. If you have any problem after Jan 01 that requires replacement of either the coil or condenser, you're sunk. It's a whole new system or nothing. Buy a 410A system now and you'll get a less costly system which is good through at least the warranty period plus expected life of available replacement parts, and maintains the ability to accommodate parts-level repairs. Wait until after Jan 01 and you not only have a more expensive system to purchase, you also have a system that's also more expensive to service down the road because repairs will involve more instances of replacing entire modules rather than individual parts due to regulatory compliances.

HVAC buddy of mine clued me in when I called to schedule the heating system service-in. He's writing up a quote. It'll sting, badly, but not nearly as bad as a few years down the road with more expensive systems and several years worth of labor rate increases. In the interim, the increased system efficiency versus our 25 year old units will help offset some of the cost.

Maybe 280, Nick, or Jim will hop in to correct anything I've misunderstood (or gotten completely wrong).

Brad

[Boomhauer]

I would like to kick the *expletive deleted*it out of a lot of people at DuPont and Honeywell for this bullshit.

[dogmush]

For *expletive deleted*s sake.

My unit is like 6or 7 years old. Obviously not going to buy a new one now, but I'll probably need one before I sell this place and retire.

[WLJ]

For *expletive deleted*s sake.

My unit is like 6or 7 years old. Obviously not going to buy a new one now, but I'll probably need one before I sell this place and retire.

7 years old this month.

[230RN]

Follow the money...

OP: "HVAC buddy of mine clued me in when I called to schedule the heating system service-in. He's writing up a quote. It'll sting, badly, but not nearly as bad as a few years down the road with more expensive systems and several years worth of labor rate increases."

Not to disrupt your relationship with a buddy, but that's all I'm sayin'.  Follow the money.

Go ahead OP, get mad at me. Go ahead, dogmush, thank me.

[Boomhauer]

Follow the money...

OP: "HVAC buddy of mine clued me in when I called to schedule the heating system service-in. He's writing up a quote. It'll sting, badly, but not nearly as bad as a few years down the road with more expensive systems and several years worth of labor rate increases."

Not to disrupt your relationship with a buddy, but that's all I'm sayin'.  Follow the money.

Go ahead OP, get mad at me. Go ahead, dogmush, thank me.

HVAC guy is telling the truth. The real follow the money is the asswipes who lobby for expensive new refrigerants under the guise of environmentalism. We had already replaced R22, a fine refrigerant, with R410a which was extremely expensive

R-134a in cars is similarly being phased out for r-1234yf because $70 jugs of R-134a wasn’t good for the pockets of the manufacturers. Now R-134a is $400-500 a jug and the replacement R-1234yf is $2500 a jug.



 

[MechAg94]

HVAC guy is telling the truth. The real follow the money is the asswipes who lobby for expensive new refrigerants under the guise of environmentalism. We had already replaced R22, a fine refrigerant, with R410a which was extremely expensive

R-134a in cars is similarly being phased out for r-1234yf because $70 jugs of R-134a wasn’t good for the pockets of the manufacturers. Now R-134a is $400-500 a jug and the replacement R-1234yf is $2500 a jug.

I doubt it is just the companies.  I bet there are environmental groups who love that sort of regulation.

[Brad Johnson]

Follow the money...

OP: "HVAC buddy of mine clued me in when I called to schedule the heating system service-in. He's writing up a quote. It'll sting, badly, but not nearly as bad as a few years down the road with more expensive systems and several years worth of labor rate increases."

Not to disrupt your relationship with a buddy, but that's all I'm sayin'.  Follow the money.

Go ahead OP, get mad at me. Go ahead, dogmush, thank me.

HVAC buddy was just the messenger. He chose to let me know so I could make an informed decision rather than staying silent to appease the conspiracy theorists. I very much appreciate that. It's one of the many reasons I call him friend.

As Boomhauer mentioned, the money trail leads back to special interest groups and the EPA.

Brad

[K Frame]

Nope, nope nope.

This is a cabal... a CONSPIRACY!!!! by all of the HVAC technicians in the United States designed to drain your bank account and enrich them!

Perfidy!

PPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

[Brad Johnson]

Perfidy!

Tree fiddy?

Brad

[K Frame]

Tree fiddy?

Brad

Goddamned Loch Ness HVAC installer! Don't you be giving him no tree fiddy, woman!

[Bogie]

1234yf is also... flammable.

[Bogie]

My residential central air system started making horrid noises, and had unreliable gas ignition... Probably just needed massive cleaning, but there was a connection charge whether I used any gas or not, and... my increased electric usage is close to what that would have cost, and isn't likely to blow me up. So I quit using it, and will eventually remove it. The AC (in hot and humid St. Louis) is a single LG window unit that is some sort of "dual inverter" thing... It was on all summer in the rear bedroom (shotgun house), kept the whole house livable, and my highest electric bill was $135ish... I figure cost/month in the heat was about $60ish... If the house was bigger, I'd buy a second one. Winter-wise, I have a couple of the oil-filled radiator space heaters - I set them to the lowest wattage, and just let them go after things get reliably under freezing. Cheap then... House generally stays around 55 (which I prefer), and when it gets REALLY cold, I add a third one - also set for just a few hundred watts. All on different circuits. One of them is on a dreaded extension cord. A 10 gauge extension cord... Planning purchase of a pellet stove in the spring after I can figure out how to plumb the chimney...

[230RN]

Nope, nope nope.

This is a cabal... a CONSPIRACY!!!! by all of the HVAC technicians in the United States designed to drain your bank account and enrich them!

Perfidy!

PPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

Acknowledged without comment.

The other money trails are also valid.  What's interesting is how my remarks ended up with others pointing out the deeper money trails.  The expression "follow the money" was apparently coined early on, but in my home town, one might  frequently ask about what another person does for a living with "What's your racket?"

Once again, not to disturb an ongoing relationship.

As far as making the best decision as to wait versus do it now, there are other factors besides the cited future labor costs. There's also the expectable decline in "real" costs of making the new equipment and refrigerant as demand and production increases. This, as well as estimating the value of what we call "money" in the future (that means inflation, folks) versus your own income possibilities --retiring soon?

Possibly the  most important is the fact that it's easier to get it done now than some unforeseeable and awkward time in future.

Incidentally, I agree with the "kicking the *expletive deleted*it out of" sentiment expressed above.

Terry, 230RN

[K Frame]

And how do we know you're not just an agent provocateur, flying your false flag to redirect blame away from the true party?

Hum?

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

I KNEW I didn't trust you, you and your sneaky skullduggery!

[Brad Johnson]

As far as making the best decision as to wait versus do it now, there are other factors besides future labor costs. Thee's also the expectable decline in "real" costs of making the new equipment and refrigerant as demand and production increases,.This, as well as esrimating the value of what we call "money" in the future (that means infaltion, folks). and your own income possibiities --retiring soon?

Possily most important is the fact that it's easier to get it done now than some unforeseeable and awkward time in future.

Terry, 230RN

Biggest factor for me is the potential for expensive "repairs" (i.e. full system replacement) in the short term.

Both our compressors and one evaporator are 24 years old. The other evaporator is original to the house (1984, modified for 410A at some point). This means a high likelihood of major component failure in all units over the next five years. R-454B systems are incompatible with 410A system components, so any failure of any pressurized component will necessitate complete replacement of the system. Such replacement will be rushed, beholden to whatever equipment is available on short notice, and during a period where the systems are still relatively new and expensive. Those factors combined, it makes sense to go ahead and replace the units now while I can take advantage of existing equipment prices, sidestep future labor rate inflation, and with the luxury of sufficient time to consider options. It also gets me into equipment which is warranted for a minimum of ten years, can be serviced at the component level using much more common parts and methods, and is more efficient than our current systems.

I'm not a "wait until it breaks then fix it because" person, the kind who biases heavily to up-front expense and what-ifs away potential future financial detriments. Dad is like that and it cost us far more than it ever saved, plus usually resulting in significant and often costly inconvenience. I'm big on being proactive when it's advantageous. This is one of those times. I did the same with our water heater, a Rheem I picked up on a killer sale a couple years ago and tucked away in the garage. Our existing unit is 21 years old, double and then some the usual life span for water heaters in our area, so purchasing the unit while it was heavily discounted made sense. Glad I did, too, as the same unit today is most of twice what I paid. It will probably be installed soon.

Brad

[230RN]

^ Good decisioneering.

And how do we know you're not just an agent provocateur, flying your false flag to redirect blame away from the true party?

Hum?

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

I KNEW I didn't trust you, you and your sneaky skullduggery!

Acknowledged with a grin and a head-shake and a tsk-tsk-tsk.

I trigger hate, I trigger love, I trigger laughter, I trigger pity, I trigger K Frame.

Terry, 230RN

[K Frame]

I'm looking at 24-26 years old (or older) for my current system. So far no issues at all, but fingers crossed. I really don't want to replace the whole system right now.

But, fortunately, if I do have to replace it, I can replace it with a much smaller unit.

It was sized for a house with absolute crap single pane leaky windows and very little attic insulation.

Since it was installed I've new windows that are far more effiicient and I jumped the attic insulation from maybe R-11 to roughly R-49. That alone made an enormous difference.

As it stands right now, my system (especially the AC part of it) is substantially oversized for my home, and thus it cools too quickly and doesn't do a decent job of dehumidifying.

[Tuco]

Just another money-grab by big freon.

[Brad Johnson]

As it stands right now, my system (especially the AC part of it) is substantially oversized for my home, and thus it cools too quickly and doesn't do a decent job of dehumidifying.

Sounds like a two speed system would be just the ticket. Low speed for long-duration dehumidification on milder days, high speed for max cooling during hot spells.

Brad

[zxcvbob]

Goddamned Loch Ness HVAC installer! Don't you be giving him no tree fiddy, woman!

I gave him a dollar...   

[K Frame]

Sounds like a two speed system would be just the ticket. Low speed for long-duration dehumidification on milder days, high speed for max cooling during hot spells.

Brad

Yep. If I replace it, it's going to be a dual stage.

I'm also going to have them do a full Manual J so that the unit is properly sized to what the house now is.

Right now IIRC I have either a 3 or 3.5 ton unit, which was a direct replacement for the original unit.

I did an online estimate (quickie manual J) and it was telling me that I only need about 2 to 2.5 tons total.

[K Frame]

In case anyone wonders WTF the tree fiddy think is about...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-GvQ2uJBOA