Another THR member "Live Life" migrating to APS

[JN01]

Hello. 
At 58, I am not quite a dinosaur yet but during 35 years spent on shooting/reloading activities allowed me to experience through Army as medic and part-time "volunteer" to our unit's armory where I was introduced to 1911s which I grew to love, pursued USPSA match shooting while learning to shoot and reload under the wings of a seasoned bullseye/PPC match shooter who shaved the lead off bottom of FMJ bullets to make them weigh the same and did all gunsmith work taught me to transform a donor Norinco 1911 into USPSA match pistol fortified with Wilson Combat components, doing 2.5 lb trigger job and hand filing/fitting all the parts like beaver tail grip safety with diamond files because he didn't allowed me to use a Dremmel.

And my USPSA RSO who was a range owner and SWAT instructor to local PD/SD was my defensive shooting instructor who taught me the virtues of eyes closed point shooting (With front sights of Glocks removed) along with regional USPSA match shooters to look past the front sight and make holes appear fast anywhere on target to achieve "Zen" of shooting.

While working 26 years for CA state government in three different agencies, taught/introduced hundreds of coworkers/neighbors and their families/friends to virtues of eyes closed/looking past front sight fast defensive point shooting.

Over a million rounds later (Not counting nearly half million rounds of 22LR), almost 15 years spent at THR was fun/happy times, five of which were retirement years that allowed me to pursue time extensive projects like comparing over 50 brands/weights/lots of 22LR (Especially "cheap" loose bulk packs) to pursue sub 1/2" 50 yard groups with "non-match" ammunition like CCI SV, Aguila 40 gr LRN/CPRN, etc. - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-cheap-bulk-22lr-ammunition-comparison.908102/post-12938874

I am surpassing 45,000 round count of testing and anticipate finishing around at 50,000 and could post my results at Rimfire Central - https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/

THR incubated and grew RMR Bullets to become projectile of choice for ELEY centerfire match ammunition.  I have long supported and was supported by owner Jake and could post my 69/75 gr .223 bullet testing with unlimited 0.1 gr powder charge increment reloading at the range and new 40S&W bullet testing results at Brian Enos forum for USPSA match shooters and 3 gunners - https://forums.brianenos.com/

Other than that, do you know anything about shooting?   

[230RN]

Oddly, that "resume" does not mention his very valuable (at least to otherwise ignorant little old me) detailed reviews and analyses of many firearms-related court issues.

[JTHunter]

Oddly, that "resume" does not mention his very valuable (at least to otherwise ignorant little old me) detailed reviews and analyses of many firearms-related court issues.

And that is something that I'm hoping LL will bring here.

[Live Life]

Waiting to see LiveLife's multiple legal threads get started again. :D

Oddly, that "resume" does not mention his very valuable ... detailed reviews and analyses of many firearms-related court issues.

And that is something that I'm hoping LL will bring here.

After some consideration, started 2A/ATF related cases thread - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.0

Do consider that tracking and monitoring these cases and rulings require reading hundreds of pages to reduce them into simpler "layperson" speak in bulleted "easy to follow" translation.  For some really long and convoluted case rulings, it literally fried the brain of my impaired and worn out body after 30 years of marriage to a wife who is a keen observer and seemingly "always right"  (Actually, she is, unfortunately  ).

So for this layperson in retirement, I won't have energy left for legal debate over what US Constitution and Bill of Rights really mean and how they apply to Second Amendment/ATF case rulings by courts, especially the US Supreme Court.

Thanks for understanding and I will try my best to be informative but likely not always accurate nor correct. 

[Live Life]

Other than that, do you know anything about shooting?   

That's a "it depends ... it's relative" question. 

While I spent my lifetime mastering fast point shooting (double taps) at multiple targets at USPSA match distances and moved on to eyes closed/open "natural point of aim" point shooting for fast defensive shooting ... - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/took-my-wife-shooting-for-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

And currently mastering fast cadence shooting with pistol/AR/PCC ... - https://youtu.be/TCFRWFh4Uyc?t=321

But my seasoned bullseye/PPC match shooting/reloading mentor would produce 50 yard groups that were smaller than my 25 yard groups (I am happy if I get sub 2" groups). 

And some regional USPSA match shooters who taught me the "Zen" of shooting would smoke us with factory stock Glocks and fly through stages like they were shooting with aim bot and never hesitate or slow down.

So, depends on who you ask, answer would be different.

One thing I had difficulty reproducing was fast yet smooth pace of these regional shooters engaging multiple targets at different distances while effortlessly moving through the stage ... Until one day, I saw the entire aspect of shooting from a totally different perspective.

When I was a new match shooter learning the basics, "front sight flash ... bang" was pounded into our heads by other match shooters so when we started shooting faster to reach "shot calling", we still waited for front sight flash verification before double tap where we shoot at two separate targets that are on top of each other.

After learning eyes closed/open point shooting from SWAT/defensive shooting instructor, I reached the point where I looked past the front sight and focused on the target to "see" holes/POI appearing at POA.  So instead of slow "front sight flash" verification, as I approached the targets, I was already "point shooting" to produce POI at POA and this was MUCH FASTER.  You ALREADY KNOW where the holes will appear and simply "go through the motion" to produce them.  Very different approach and once mastered, much faster.

And once you verify "natural point of aim" POI with POA, you can do the same with eyes closed at closer defensive shooting distances.  Now, when I teach someone to shoot matches/defensive shooting, I start them out with eyes closed natural point of aim point shooting at two targets (copy papers) at 7 yards.  When they produce 2"-3" groups, we move to eyes open point shooting at four targets looking past the front sight, but faster to produce double taps.  Once they become proficient, I move targets to 10-15 yards then reduce target size to 1/2 sheet then 1/4 sheet.  Front sight flash is used when targets are further out and smaller.

So next time you go shooting, try this (Link to videos above):

- Set target at 5-7 yards and place a dot
- Close eyes and draw and verify sights with dot
- While not changing grip or stance, make vertical/horizontal adjustment at shoulders/waist until sights align with the dot
- Repeat drawing until sights are at the dot
- Then move onto shooting at target while eyes closed and drawing (This assumes you mastered grip/trigger control and dry fire to not move the front sight when firing pin/striker is released ... For match shooting, I have them practice draw/dry firing 500-1000 times until front sight remains absolutely steady when firing pin/striker is released ... If there's mechanical issue, I recommend trigger job/trigger replacement)
- Make adjustment until POI is at POA
- Now your "natural point of aim" is synchronized with POA and can produce holes on target anywhere at will
- Place 4 dots and point shoot eyes closed at randomly selected dot

Once you mastered "natural point of aim" and eyes closed point shooting, we can proceed to faster eyes open point shooting while looking past the front sight:

- Focus on POA and draw while looking past the front sight.  You should have clear target picture with fuzzy front sight.
- While focusing on target, draw and fire ... Make adjustment until POI is at POA
- Shoot at dots at random.  Do not "double tap" at single dot yet.
- Increase speed
- "Double tap" on single dot but imagine shooting at different targets each shot with second target placed on previous target
- Increase distance
- Reduce target size to 1/2 sheet then 1/4 sheet

[dogmush]

Focus on target, Dot on target, bang.

Don't overcomplicated things. 

[Live Life]

Dot on target, bang.

My defensive shooting instructor who taught SWAT said that option may not always be available (He said SWAT student focus must remain on the moving targets that are shooting at them under low visibility circumstances, not necessarily fixated on pistol sights) then he lowered the range lights to dim and tossed a smoke grenade and told us to run through a USPSA match stage.  We went, "No way" ...

Even with night sights, visualizing sights on target may not always be viable under certain circumstances.

Then he taught us eyes closed/open point shooting with front sights removed from our Glocks.  Pass/Fail was hitting six 4" circles as he called out "Top left, bottom right, etc." while eyes open point shooting. (BTW, he said 4" circle was about the size of human heart)

[Kingcreek]

My pistol shooting mentor was Rob Leatham. He built my first 1911. I didn’t get to shoot with him very much but holy freakin wow.
Back then the nationals were shot on Dick Metcalf’s farm in Barry Illinois. Brian Enos, chip mcCormick, Todd Jarret, and others were fractions of seconds apart. I met them all and saw them shoot. Rob Leatham won everything. Nationals, Bianchi cup, steel challenge, etc.
I even had a beer and casual conversation with Col Jeff Cooper in the beer tent. True gentleman and great guy.
I was never in that class of shooters but I learned a lot.
Rob was head of Springfield armory’s custom shop then, sponsored by SA and Dillon and Safariland. He received 6k rounds a month from Dillon Precision and 1k of that was tracer rounds. I had a chance to shoot night range with him.
My original 1911 was eventually rebuilt by Les Baer. Still have it but crap do I feel slow on speed drills.

[dogmush]

I didn't say anything about sights. 

Dot and target are on the same focal plane. Your focus should remain on the targets the whole shot, and be moving to the next target when the shot breaks. Never focus on the gun in your hands. I am only a mediocre USPSA shooter (you're likely better than I there), but the tactical, run and gun, low light, SWAT style I do a lot. Target focused shooting, as your SWAT guy mentioned*, is key on a two way range, hence the dot.

I'm  semi joshing you about the long, complicated posts, but also semi not kidding. That style of pistol shooting has been eclipsed by red dots. You still point shoot close in with a good index, but past 5-7 ish, or with a small target (obscured, must hit headshot, target behind cover, whatever) that's too much.

Focus on target, red dot on target, bang. Faster and more accurate.

* turning the lights out and running a stage is fun, just hit the WML when it's time to shoot and move enough your own smoke doesn't reflect the light.  Run the stage in the dark under NODs for a real challenge on target tracking and aquisition.


Also, welcome to the forum.

[Phyphor]

Wait, THR Still exists?

Seriously, welcome.

[Live Life]

I didn't say anything about sights. 

I know.  My post was replying to member JN01's question of what I knew about shooting. 

do you know anything about shooting?   

Dot and target are on the same focal plane.

... That style of pistol shooting has been eclipsed by red dots.

I have used red dot sights and prefer absolute co-witness for PCC with iron sights.

And "in general" I would agree that for most people, red dot sights would provide advantage over iron sights, especially for those with visual issues.

I was near sighted all my life and began to experience cataract before retirement which definitely affected my ability to see any sights, iron or optics, including scopes.  During this time, being able to point shoot definitely came in handy, even with AR/PCC.  After cataract surgery with Vivity multi-focal intraocular lens implants that allowed 100% light transmission (Most transmit about 70%), I have 20/20 vision and can read restaurant menus without reading glasses.  For really small fonts, I use 1.5 power readers and soon 1.25 power readers.

Past 30 years, I have taught hundreds of coworkers/neighbors and their friends and families defensive/point shooting and told them to use whatever tool(s) that work for them and it's good to have options.  For older shooters with visual issues and shaky hands, I found point shooting helps them with close range shooting, especially when they can't visualize sights.  And pointing is a skill they have mastered all their lives and most people can point to within an inch of POA typical shooting distance inside the house of 5-10 yards. (I usually demonstrated point shooting using already mastered pointing skill with pencil laser held like barrel of pistol and could point laser dot right on anything inside the office fast)

[Live Life]

Also, welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the welcome.

Seriously, welcome.

Thank you for the welcome.

[Live Life]

... mentor was Rob Leatham. He built my first 1911 ... holy freakin wow ... Brian Enos, chip mcCormick, Todd Jarret, and others were fractions of seconds apart. I met them all and saw them shoot. Rob Leatham won everything. Nationals, Bianchi cup, steel challenge, etc. ... even had a beer and casual conversation with Col Jeff Cooper ... was never in that class of shooters but I learned a lot.

Nice!

[Lennyjoe]

Wait, THR Still exists?

Seriously, welcome.

Crazy isn’t it?  LOL

I’m still relatively active there.

[Live Life]

Wait, THR Still exists?

Crazy isn’t it?  LOL

It's supposed to be "High Road" but some of what goes on there by members/moderators seem "Low Road" ... It's like some members/moderators views and opinions are allowed/acceptable but "not for thee" and counter opinions/views are shot down and threads closed and posts deleted.

While the forum exists to seemingly support First and Second Amendment rights, this member increasingly felt "muzzled" and last PMs from certain moderators to "censor" it's membership (I wonder why that is?) was the final straw and I decided to leave ... Maybe because I openly supported Trump in 2016/2020/2024 (Some members/moderators are obviously and openly not Trump supporters and perhaps that's the underlying cause of issues?) who ultimately got us Bruen/Cargill/Loper/Rahimi and soon Range rulings followed by various Second Amendment cases headed for and at the Supreme Court.  Had Hillary/Kamala won, we would not have such rulings. 

I mean, THR is a "gun forum" after all ... and desire to express how and why we have gun rights (including how and why we got Bruen and subsequent case rulings like Loper, Cargill, etc.) is somehow not allowed and members are made to feel "suppressed" and those that support smaller voice of particular minority group (gun owners) segment of "We the People" are "oppressed"?

Who knows ... But you know, life is short ...

Even though my time on APS has been short, I have seen more "Polite" treatment of members by other members and forum that apparently supports First Amendment right of free speech, along with all the other amendments. 👍

Perhaps the difference could be Oleg's "volunteer based no ad, not for profit" APS forum vs "for profit, ad/membership revenue" model of THR.

Or it could be something else.  Who knows ...

[Mk-211]

Here's the perfect song for THR.

https://youtu.be/epbOHloSpZM?si=MYxd39l9O8XthF2w

[Live Life]

Here's the perfect song for THR.

https://youtu.be/epbOHloSpZM?si=MYxd39l9O8XthF2w

So true ... Time to move on 

[cordex]

Out of curiosity, how did you guys hear about us?

[Live Life]

Out of curiosity, how did you guys hear about us?

There were many sources - https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/09/controversy-at-high-road.html

Of course, Oleg Volk's blog - https://blog.olegvolk.net/2011/02/21/another-look-at-the-high-road-story/

[harieg]

That's a "it depends ... it's relative" question. 

i followed you here as well john.... thanx for the heads up

[Live Life]

i followed you here as well john.... thanx for the heads up

Great to see you here. 

[Live Life]

So the new/returning guys are old farts too? This place is turning into geriatric central.

Me and the other young guys here are getting really tired of listening to your ache and pain complaints ... "Who is Joe Rogan?" questions, "The Internet is a fad and what's a meme?" comments

It's all just too much for us young guys here to take. We need to create a "Geritol Buddies" subforum here for the old guys to shuffle off to with their "In my day" crap and leave the rest of the forum for us younger bros. You old guys are a real downer, man.

Some from younger generations are surprised when I tell them I am older than Google, Amazon, X/Twitter, Facebook, etc. 

Their jaws drop when I tell them I was around when pdf, MP3, jpeg, MPEG, DivX were coming to market and I used to load operating system files from cassette tape player for my Apple II.  Confused, they ask, "What's a cassette tape?" 

But they are impressed that I have CompTIA A+ certification and built over 1000 desktop computers part-time before I stopped counting (I bought every version of Microsoft operating system along with Linux, FreeBSD, including my current favorite Linux Mint) along with countless gaming systems, point-of-sale systems with mirrored hard drive backup and servers; and predated "overclocking" of single core CPU PCs and 4 single core CPU server boards (I would build overclocked Intel Celeron CPU servers meant for then new Pentium CPUs with same performance levels for local college Computer Class/CompTIA A+ professor who owned a networking company with fleet of service vans/technicians and he asked me to conduct second half of lectures I was attending with more up to date technical information than the textbook ... College later asked me to teach the CompTIA A+ class but I declined as I had a full-time government job).

Some younger generations are really impressed when I tell them I also built DAWs (Digital Audio Workstations) for bands using multiple low latency ASIO sound cards for live/studio recordings and some younger gamers are shocked that we were already bridging two video cards way back in the early 90s and I predated Quake and Unreal Tournament.

When my nephew got Dell/Alienware Area 51 and niece got his old computer, I upgraded her video card and memory with performance tweaks for her birthday and she was the only person at her high school who could run certain new games on high graphic settings (One game locked up nephew's Alienware on high setting and he was mad asking, "WHAT did you do to my old computer to run that game on high?" ... I just smiled but told my niece to keep the large fan blowing on high with side case cover off to prevent thermal shutdown  )

Not all old guys are "downers". 

[Ben]

Not all old guys are "downers". 

Yes they are. Old people suck and are lame. It's my greatest wish to be hit by a bus before I turn 40 so I don't have to be one. Logan's Run had it right.

[grampster]

Ben has rabid dementia from a rogue racoon.

[RocketMan]

Ben has rabid dementia from a rogue racoon.

Could be Ben has dementia just from getting old.  You know, that Old Timer's Disease.