Author Topic: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!  (Read 882 times)

Ben

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Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« on: December 05, 2024, 08:44:47 AM »
I have never installed a muzzle device before. Somehow all my rifles have come with what I want on them, or I bought them at my LGS where the gunsmith stuck a HUB device on for free before I walked out the door. I'm getting my Winter build together and picked up a Reardon R2S yesterday (the rifle will be canned 95% of the time). I always figured it was an easy chore, with the hardest part being timing on some devices. I have made the mistake of going down the Youtube rabbit hole, and if I still had hair, I would be pulling it out right now.

I have now seen everything from, "Just stick the upper in a vise or use a magwell vise", to "You need a $100 upper vise block or you'll wreck your upper!" Also, "You have to get it to EXACTLY 30ftlbs" and (including from silencer companies), "Just tighten from 12 to 2 O'Clock and that's about 30lbs." Also, you MUST use high temp thread locker for a silencer" to (again from silencer companies), "Meh - use thread locker or don't". Also that I need a 5.56 bore rod to ensure the device is on straight and that I don't get any baffle strikes.

Somebody talk me down. Do I need to go out and buy $150 worth of stuff to do this, or can I redneck it, or should I let my gunsmith do it for $30? Again, this is for a device for a silencer, not just sticking a new device on a non-silenced rifle.
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HankB

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2024, 09:25:14 AM »
Your suppressor will have to go on the device in such as way that it will be concentric to the rifle bore. Given that you've got three items - barrel, device, and suppressor that all have to be closely aligned,  $30 to the gunsmith is cheap . . . providing you're SURE he knows what he's doing and what the requirements are to do it right the first time.

I note that the Reardon website includes some requirements for proper mounting, including use of an alignment rod.
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RocketMan

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2024, 09:27:29 AM »
Don't do it, man! You have too much to live for!

Did that help?
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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2024, 09:32:22 AM »
I have now seen everything from, "Just stick the upper in a vise or use a magwell vise", to "You need a $100 upper vise block or you'll wreck your upper!" Also, "You have to get it to EXACTLY 30ftlbs" and (including from silencer companies), "Just tighten from 12 to 2 O'Clock and that's about 30lbs."
AR upper is made from soft aluminum (not steel) and when I am torquing anything attached to it like barrel nut or muzzle device (break, comp, etc.), I prefer to use mount tool that engages the barrel lugs directly to not stress the upper like Geissele Reaction Rod or upper reaction rods made by others that run around $50-$100.  Here's comparison video of different reaction rods - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4AHiVGdfFQ

Magpul BEV block is $42 and steel construction with steel lugs engage the barrel lugs to not stress the upper - https://gunmagwarehouse.com/magpul-bev-block-ar15-m4.html

I use regular polymer magwell block when cleaning or doing assembly work that doesn't require applying heavy torque force.

Your suppressor will have to go on the device in such as way that it will be concentric to the rifle bore. Given that you've got three items - barrel, device, and suppressor that all have to be closely aligned,  $30 to the gunsmith is cheap
Good suggestion to prevent bullet contacting the baffles.

dogmush

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2024, 10:27:44 AM »
Ah, Internet fuddlore.  Smells like ……. Aqua Velva and fear.

As you guys know, I no longer like to shoot unsuppressed rifles, and I shoot a bunch of Ars, so between mine and my friends, I’ve probably put on 30 suppressor mounts, from A2 Birdcages (yep that can be a suppressor mount) to pinned and welded SF War Comps.  This is not some black magic, and there’s no call to pull hair.

TL:DR: A Rearden R2S doesn’t need to be timed.  Clean the muzzle threads, use blue locktite, thread the Rearden on by hand till it bottoms out on the barrel shoulder, torque to 25 ft-lbs.  You can probably hold the upper in between your thighs for that torque. Then go shoot (quietly).

Long answer with a bunch of extra info just in case:

Holding and fixturing:  The internet is correct that you don’t really want to hold the upper receiver and torque on the barrel assembly.  You can tweak the receiver or, more commonly, damage the index pin on the barrel or the slot it rides in and allow the barrel to clock.  This is almost ALWAYS something that happens when taking things off, because someone hulked them on and then they sat there for years.  Putting something on is a lot lower torque.  Still it’s a good practice to hold the upper correctly.  I use a Reaction Rod from Geiselle, but I build a lot of uppers and swap barrels and handguards around.  For one muzzle device that’s an expensive tool.  A set of barrel clamp vise blocks like these: https://www.amazon.com/Fenyee-Universal-Gunsmithing-Constructed-Non-Marring/dp/B0C2PBQNW8/ work just fine, although depending on barrel length after the gas block you may need to pull the gas tube, or cut the blocks down a bit.  Depends on your build.  If this is really a one time deal, you can fab vise blocks by drilling a hole slightly smaller than your barrel OD in a hunk of word or something, then cutting it in half.  Pretty easy and cheap.  If possible clamp it right behind the muzzle threads.

Thread Locker:  You don’t NEED it.  But if your can carbon locks (and isn’t left hand threaded to the device) you risk screwing the muzzle device off with the can one day.  Still not the end of the world but a PITA.  I experimented early on with Rockset, which works great but now I have a specific pot to boil my barrels in if I need to get a muzzle device off.  Most of the time I just use blue locktite for GPs.  But I also don’t take cans off that much.  Dealers choice on how you will use the gun and how much Qding you will actually do.

Alignment: You are aligning the machined back of the muzzle device on the machined barrel shoulder using trued shims.  There is nothing you can do really to F this up, and if it is F’d up nothing you can do to fix it.  You can skip the alignment rod.  I eyeball the bore from both ends for alignment after mounting the can, you’ll be able to see if it’s out far enough for a baffle strike.
Alignment part 2: DO NOT USE A CRUSH WASHER.  Buy a shim kit if your muzzle device doesn’t come with them.  Quality barrel+Quality Muzzle Device+Quality Shims=No alignment issues.
Alignment Part 3: That said (and it’s good general knowledge) I just googled a Rearden R2S and it’s a symmetrical birdcage style suppressor mount. So timing is not needed.  Assuming that your barrel has a thread relief machined in (if it doesn’t get a better barrel, that maker is dumb) just thread the R2S on the barrel until it bottoms out on the barrel shoulder and move on with your life.

Torque:   Non-crush washer 5.56 Muzzle device torque is 20-30 ft-lbs.  You aren’t timing this one so set your torque wrench at 25 ft-lbs and stop when it clicks.  (To the internet comment section: don’t com at me about the conversion for a crow’s foot adapter, look at the torque range)  For future proofing, if you are using one that needs to be timed, you adjust with shims until it get’s hand tight about 20 degrees before “correct” then set your torque wrench to the max allowable torque and tighten it up. As long as it times before the torque wrench clicks you are good.  If you hit max torque before it’s timed, take it off and tweak the shim stack.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Ben

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2024, 11:23:58 AM »
I figured Dogmush would jump in with the full lowdown.  =D

As it's going on a new barrel (BCM MK2 16"), as long as BCM didn't tighten the A2 down gorilla tight (they did not have an option for "no muzzle device"), I'd almost be tempted to use the "between the knees" method. Otherwise I'm deciding on if this is something I will do often enough in the future to get the Geiselle or similar reaction rod, as my rabbit holing seems to have those show up as a better option than a standard upper vise block.

Otherwise, the shims were definitely a question. The Reardon did not come with any, I guess because it's a flash hider with no "six O'clock no dust up" cut, so I guess it doesn't matter where the cuts end up? I would assume BCM machines sufficient relief into their barrels, so going direct would be okay?

Anyways, thanks Dogmush and others for the input.
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dogmush

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2024, 01:08:11 PM »
Otherwise, the shims were definitely a question. The Reardon did not come with any, I guess because it's a flash hider with no "six O'clock no dust up" cut, so I guess it doesn't matter where the cuts end up? I would assume BCM machines sufficient relief into their barrels, so going direct would be okay?

Anyways, thanks Dogmush and others for the input.

Almost certainly, but I would double check anyways.  If you are unfamiliar, what you are looking for is a section behind the threads where the barrel is turned down to less than the minor diameter of the muzzle threads.  What this does is allow the muzzle device to "float" on the tolerances between the male and female threads until it hits the machine barrel shoulder and indexes on that.  If the relief isn't there, as the female threads on the muzzle device hit the end of the male threads on the barrel and the whole thing will index on some portion of the 60 degree thread face instead of the 90 degree barrel shoulder.  It's obvious when you look at it if you know what to look for.  I'll try and find a picture on the internet for you.

dogmush

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2024, 01:33:04 PM »
Let's see how hotlinking from my tablet works:



Pic stolen from Arfcom, owner's URL in pic

That is a *very* pronounced relief cut on the bottom of that pic, but it gets the point across. They are usually 1.5 to 2.5 threads wide. The important part is they are cut deeper than the minor diameter of the thread so that they don't become the index for the muzzle device threads.

This is a BCM barrel pic from primary arms:


It looks like that relief is cut well. About 1.5 threads and the diameter looks small enough. Hard to say from a jpeg.

This one is definitely no good though:


Pull the flash hider and look. If you are unsure slap a shim on there.
https://www.primaryarms.com/yankee-hill-machine-556-barrel-shim-set-.5-id

Ben

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2024, 01:47:42 PM »
Thanks for the pics! That's helpful. The upper is still in the mail, but I will check when it gets here.
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Bogie

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2024, 08:21:01 PM »
Talking tolerances here...
 
0.005" is a LOT of wiggle room...
 
My lathe will handle runout of about 0.0005" - When I make a brake which is not immediately part of a rifle barrel, I'll usually do them to a sort of industry standard - about 0.020" large, and I'll do all the interior operations (maintaining concentricity) without removing the piece from the chuck (but I'll usually use a collet - they help you hold tighter. I go that large because (a) it still works, and (b) it is big enough to avoid a strike unless the barrel/rifle manufacturer really screwed stuff up. Same caveats if you're putting a can on... If the thing was made by Crooked Charlie, you may end up with some problems, but one would assume with what some of the makes out there that they are charging enough to have stuff square... With the muzzle devices I do, I'll rebate the interior threads a few thou, just in case it ends up having to deal with someone who didn't cut a relief.
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dogmush

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2024, 08:40:32 PM »
^^^^
Yeah, it's not actually that precise a thing, but doing it for the first time with an expensive can it can make one nervous. FWIW, a normal bore for a 5.56 commercial can of normal length is between .270" and .290". The conventional wisdom on drilling a 5.56 Form 1 can is 9/32 bit (.281") so you are talking machining tolerances in the thousands of an inch, with safe windows in the hundredth of an inch.

On the counter bored muzzle devices I've seen that a lot (on my brakes from you Bogie) as well as SOLGW, HuxWrx, and Griffin muzzle devices. Does the same thing as a relief on the threads. I've never seen a Rearden in person though, and they mention swimming the R2C if your barrel threads aren't relieved, so I just went with explain8ng the one side of it.  Post was already kinda long.

Bogie

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2024, 09:13:13 PM »
Pardon me here, but I know a lot of the old names... Whodat? I sold a bunch of brakes (enough to live on) for about a year, and I'm going to be doing that again, but I the day job has been paying for the insurance and stuff...
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dogmush

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Re: Installing Muzzle Device - Somebody Talk Me Down!
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2024, 09:31:41 PM »
Pardon me here, but I know a lot of the old names... Whodat? I sold a bunch of brakes (enough to live on) for about a year, and I'm going to be doing that again, but I the day job has been paying for the insurance and stuff...

Same name.  I got some of your brakes back in (checks old thread)....2011 I ran one on my  varmit AR for a while till I went all in on suppressing rifles. Still have the brake around here somewhere.