Author Topic: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?  (Read 2021 times)

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,871
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2024, 11:05:12 PM »
Yeah.  It's a matter of supply/demand, along with risk/reward.

If there is demand for illegal immigrant labor there will be a supply.  If there is supply of benefits (including birthright citizenship!) for illegal immigrants there will be demand from them.

As long as the reward for illegally immigrating outweighs the risks, and as long as the supply/demand dynamics favor illegal immigration, we will continue to have a problem with it.

Which means solving the problem requires increasing the risks to the migrants, reducing the rewards they can reap, and reducing the demand for their labor.

Which means we have to devise some system that is cheap, easy, and free of cartel control over the flows of migrant labor, while allowing the migrants to be fully documented and trackable.  Because a ton of companies rely too much on that labor to just cut it off.

You do realise it’s not possible to track all migrant labor without tracking all labor, right? Funny how some of the same people on this band wagon rail against government regulation and licensing of all working arrangements.

The legal problem is that the constitution was drafted to specifically address children born to non citizens - the whole issue with the Dred Scott case was a finding that blacks had never been brought to the USA as citizens, since they were slaves, and so therefore their children could not be citizens. 

Rather than draft something complicated that was open to another Dred Scott type decision, the drafters of the 14th amendment put the issue throughly to bed. It is absolutely impossible to interpret what they drafted as allowing a change to the birthright citizenship rule because that’s 100 percent exactly what they intended to do.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,910
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2024, 08:18:15 AM »
"Is it time to end birthright citizenship?"

Better late than never, yes.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,391
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2024, 09:03:29 AM »
You do realise it’s not possible to track all migrant labor without tracking all labor, right? Funny how some of the same people on this band wagon rail against government regulation and licensing of all working arrangements . . .
Microchipping migrants might help.
Trump won in 2016. And again in 2024. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2025, 10:28:09 AM »
Is it time to end birthright citizenship? https://www.yahoo.com/news/inside-trump-team-plans-try-130042965.html

- Trump’s team is assessing multiple options to fulfill his long-promised pledge to end birthright citizenship
- Expectation is the Supreme Court would ultimately have to rule on the matter as it is protected by the 14th Amendment
- Trump stated, “We’re gonna have to get it changed, or maybe I would go back to the people, but we have to end it.”
- Multiple options are being considered to tighten the interpretation as any action would likely get legally challenged and eventually land before the Supreme Court
- Trump allies argue that 14th Amendment has been misinterpreted and doesn’t apply to children born in the United States to undocumented parents
- Some ... have argued that children of undocumented immigrants are not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the US and shouldn’t be considered citizens under the Constitution

New York Times - Jan. 18, 2025: Birthright Citizenship Defined America. Trump Wants to Redefine It - The 14th Amendment made the U.S. a place where every child was born equal under the law. That might be about to change - https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/18/magazine/birthright-citizenship.html

- 14th Amendment ... grants citizenship to almost everyone born inside the country ... Among the 20 most developed countries in the world, only Canada and the United States allocate citizenship using the legal principle of jus soli, the right of soil.
- Trump has vowed to overturn territorial birthright citizenship. “We’re going to have to get it changed”
- Trump ... will release an executive order denying birthright citizenship to the children of “illegal aliens” on the first day that he takes office
- His team ... will not issue passports and Social Security cards to children born to undocumented parents
- These moves will inevitably be challenged in court
- Efforts to end birthright citizenship ... Trump’s return ... greatest challenges in the 14th Amendment’s 157-year history. Legal arguments that were once regarded as fringe have moved to the mainstream
- The Supreme Court has proved itself willing to break with historical precedent ... Trump, who campaigned on the idea of restricting birthright citizenship, is entering office with a majority of the vote
- Trump ... represent a triumph for a certain vision of America ... Angered by the challenges posed by rising global migration ... led several other industrialized nations to replace birthright citizenship with less welcoming laws
- Battle over birthright citizenship will be a fight between ... two nationalisms, as it was when the 14th Amendment was proposed.
- 14th Amendment is not fundamentally about immigration. It is about equality. Before the amendment passed, men and women of African descent could not be citizens, even if they were not enslaved.
- When the 14th Amendment was ratified — granting citizenship to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” — it turned the United States into a multiracial democracy for the first time ... “constitutional reset button.”
- But its relevance to immigration policy remained open to debate until the Supreme Court decided the case of Wong Kim Ark in 1898. At the time, Chinese immigrants were explicitly banned from becoming American citizens ... when asked if a man born to Chinese immigrants in California could claim citizenship, the Supreme Court ruled he could — because he was born on American soil.
- Many legal scholars contend that the application of territorial birthright citizenship to all immigrants has been a settled matter in the United States since the Wong Kim Ark decision in 1898
- The current challenges to birthright citizenship have their roots in the 1980s, when two Yale professors, Rogers M. Smith and Peter H. Schuck, began to write about the possibility that birthright citizenship might not apply to the children of unauthorized migrants
- Their 1985 book, “Citizenship Without Consent” ... captivated conservatives who appreciated its argument that Congress did not address the issue of children of unauthorized migrants when it wrote the 14th Amendment in the 1860s and that it retained the power to resolve the ambiguity through legislation.
- In 1991, when Representative Elton Gallegly, a California Republican, sponsored a bill trying to restrict the Fourteenth Amendment, he referred to Schuck and Smith’s work ... rise in illegal immigration was a burden to law enforcement, medical facilities, schools and social welfare agencies. - When considered together with the expanded welfare state, the effects of birthright citizenship laws were “clearly harmful.”
- He also noted that it was harder to deport unauthorized parents if they had children who were citizens.
- Bill died in committee, but support for the idea of restricting the application of the 14th Amendment grew
- The epithet “anchor babies” gained traction in the early 2000s as a way to suggest that undocumented parents had children in the United States primarily to ward off deportation.
- For three years beginning in 2013, Texas stopped issuing birth certificates for some children of unauthorized migrants.
- Unlike Schuck and Smith, most legal scholars believe that changing birthright citizenship requires ratifying a new constitutional amendment, a process that takes years and is unlikely to succeed.
- So many proponents of restriction would like to see the Supreme Court issue a decision that defines the amendment more narrowly. If Trump issues an executive order, it could force that court battle.

- As the global population turns more transient, more countries have tossed out jus soli. Since 1980, England, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand have all redefined citizenship so that it falls primarily along blood lines. In each case, new laws followed a rise in immigration from less developed regions of the world.
- Wars, political upheavals, climate change and advances in communications and transportation have supercharged migration. According to the United Nations, the number of refugees and asylum-seekers in the world has more than quadrupled since 1980, reaching 44.5 million by the end of 2023.
- This trend has affected the United States intensely. Millions of immigrants entered America around the turn of the 20th century, but at rates starkly slower than today.
- According to the Economic History Association, from 1870 to 1920, new arrivals numbered between 260,000 to 892,000 people a year. But the U.S. Border Patrol encountered more than two million migrants a year along the U.S.-Mexico border in 2022, 2023 and 2024.
- “There’s a reason all developed countries have gotten rid of it
,” Mark Krikorian, the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a right-wing group that advocates drastically slowing migration, said about birthright citizenship. “If we had 500 kids a year born to tourists or students or illegal aliens, there would be no reason to even have this debate.”
- Krikorian wants American citizenship limited to children with at least one parent who is a citizen or legal permanent resident, but even he favors implementing a “statute of limitations” that would automatically grant citizenship to those born in the United States after they’ve lived in the country for a given period, like 10 years. Australia and France both have policies like this in place.
- Without this sort of safeguard, the United States risks the creation of an underclass composed of millions of native-born residents who are banned from full participation in our nation’s economy and politics [Being able to vote  ;) =D]

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2025, 11:05:36 AM »
Not that we don't appreciate you posting most of a NYT article,  do you have any thoughts or input on it?

https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=2.msg367795#msg367795

Quote
Copying and pasting passages from or entire articles from another site to APS is strictly prohibited.

While copyright law provides for “fair use” of portions of a copyrighted work, fair use is open to significant interpretation. It’s easier and safer to avoid the entire question by not copying any of the copyrighted work.

 If you wish to call attention to an article, you must provide a link to the article along with the name of website. For example:  www.xxx.yyy/zzz (The Lower Thumbsuck Daily News).

 In keeping with our prohibition against “cut and paste drive by posts” (a link to an article with no substantive commentary by the poster) you must provide, in your own words, a brief summary of the article AND your reasons for believing it will be of interest to APS members.

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2025, 11:49:23 AM »
Agree and why I inquired with mods if bulleted listing of articles would be acceptable without violating copyright. (I haven't received negative feedback since so I figured there wasn't an issue)

I can paraphrase the article into my commentary with my thoughts/opinions.

Today is burn day for our county and I am in midst of last of tree branch trimming burning and I can "paraphrase work" after 12 pm PST when burn day ends in 3 hours.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2025, 11:57:42 AM »
Agree and why I I quired with mods if bulleted listing of articles would be acceptable without violating copyright.

I can paraphrase the article into my commentary with my thoughts/opinions.

Today is burn day for our county and I am in midst of last of tree branch trimming burning and I can "paraphrase work" after 12 pm PST when burn day ends.

I'm not trying to be a copyright rules nazi with that post.  I was more pointing out the part where we'd like members to add something.

This is, between the snark and thread drift, a discussion forum.  We li,e to have discussions about topics that interest us.  We can all hit reading mode and read that article, non of us need someone to skim it or paraphrase it for us.

What are YOUR opinions on the subject?  Which side do you think is correct on the interpertation of "Subject to the jurisdiction of".

I truely mean no offense as you are pretty new here, but this isn't THR.  Simply bulleting articles, while it might be convenient,  doesn't actually add to the conversation, or bring much value to the discussion.

My comment is less of a "you are breaking the copyright rules" and more of a " we tend to be more interested in our members opinions than the NYT's. Please provide those"

Just a thought.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2025, 12:12:00 PM »
Quote
As the global population turns more transient, more countries have tossed out jus soli. Since 1980, England, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand have all redefined citizenship so that it falls primarily along blood lines. In each case, new laws followed a rise in immigration from less developed regions of the world.

I'd expect this clause of the Constitution to be used against hereditary citizenship:

Quote
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S9-C8-4/ALDE_00013204/

The argument in my link is very topical to this issue. 

Quote
How broadly to understand the Title of Nobility Clause’s prohibition thus remains an open, if perhaps academic, question. On a narrow reading, the Clause merely prohibits a federal system of hereditary privilege along the lines of the British aristocratic system. More broadly understood, the Clause could preclude other governmental grants of enduring favor or disfavor to particular classes based on birth or other non-merit-based criteria.

I still say attacking the migrants and the concept of citizenship isn't the right target.  Go after the Welfare and Entitlement State.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2025, 12:21:57 PM »
I'm not trying to be a copyright rules nazi with that post.

I inquired whether my method of bulleted/listing of redacted/paraphrased posting of article met APS posting rules in November of 2024 and there hasn't been negative feedback from admin/mods. (I sent another PM to verify)
... bulleted highlights to not violate the copyright rule.

... I will run ... by APS admin/mods
I do need to clear with APS mods/admin bulleted highlighting method of posting articles/transcripts to not violate copyright rules.

I was more pointing out the part where we'd like members to add something.

This is, between the snark and thread drift, a discussion forum.
Believe me, as a first generation "legal" immigrant naturalized citizen myself, I have a lot to talk about regarding immigration but today is burn day after several days of "no burn" days and I didn't have much time to read all the members' comments before responding to them.

I have 3 more hours of burning left and will certainly "comment" on what my thoughts are.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,097
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2025, 04:32:34 PM »
I inquired whether my method of bulleted/listing of redacted/paraphrased posting of article met APS posting rules in November of 2024 and there hasn't been negative feedback from admin/mods. (I sent another PM to verify)I do need to clear with APS mods/admin bulleted highlighting method of posting articles/transcripts to not violate copyright rules.

Whether or not the mods object, the rule is in place so that this forum doesn't get sued for copyright violation. It's the responsibility of each member to police their own posts. You need to read up on "fair use doctrine." While quoting isolated snippets from an article in the course of discussing or reviewing the article usually constitutes fair use, simply regurgitating significant chunks of it without adding any commentary is probably a copyright violation.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2025, 07:03:30 PM »
I inquired whether my method of bulleted/listing of redacted/paraphrased posting of article met APS posting rules in November of 2024 and there hasn't been negative feedback from admin/mods.

(I sent another PM to verify)

Reply from mod is "good to go" for bulleted/listing of redacted/paraphrased posting of articles so as to not violate APS copyright concern "Unless Oleg pops in some time and tells us" otherwise.

Acknowledgement was made that 2A/ATF and 22LR lowest shipped price threads migrated from THR are informational "database" threads done at the request of THR members (And THR admins/mods were also OK with bulleted/listing of articles to not violate copyright rule).

For other threads like this, I will gladly summarize and paraphrase what the article meant to me and what my thoughts are as you should have noticed by now, I have no issues expressing my thoughts =D - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70240.25



I think there should be no birthright citizenship for children born to parents here illegally or under any kind of temporary work visa. I include people who get married just for the status. Birthright citizenship for children of Legal Resident Aliens or persons in the process of acquiring their LRA? Sure They've gone through proper channels. Same with vetted asylum-seekers.
Yeah.  It's a matter of supply/demand, along with risk/reward.

If there is demand for illegal immigrant labor there will be a supply.  If there is supply of benefits (including birthright citizenship!) for illegal immigrants there will be demand from them.

As long as the reward for illegally immigrating outweighs the risks, and as long as the supply/demand dynamics favor illegal immigration, we will continue to have a problem with it.
Not that we don't appreciate you posting most of a NYT article,  do you have any thoughts or input on it?

What are YOUR opinions on the subject?  Which side do you think is correct on the interpertation of "Subject to the jurisdiction of".
Believe me, as a first generation "legal" immigrant naturalized citizen myself, I have a lot to talk about regarding immigration but today is burn day after several days of "no burn" days and I didn't have much time to read all the members' comments before responding to them.

I have 3 more hours of burning left and will certainly "comment" on what my thoughts are.

My take on birthright citizenship of children born to parents here illegally is similar to shopping at Costco.

Let's say someone entered Costco illegally without membership or being a "guest" of a member.  Once inside Costco, even though entry was done "illegally", that someone is now able to enjoy membership privileges like free food samples, use of restroom, use of drinking fountain, relaxing on floor sample furniture and even free massage from massage chairs.

But these privileges were meant for members and guests of members. 

Similarly to me, birthright citizenship and citizenship privileges were meant for natural born citizens,  naturalized foreign citizens, "legal" residents where at least one parent is citizen and should not apply to "illegal" alien/immigrant, holders of work visa or temporary vacation visa.

And as NYT article points out, out of 20 developed countries, only US and Canada provide birthright citizenship
Quote
Among the 20 most developed countries in the world, only Canada and the United States allocate citizenship using the legal principle of jus soli, the right of soil.

So as members @Brad Johnson and @Northwoods pointed out, as long as birthright citizenship is provided to illegal alien/immigrant, foreigners will be enticed to keep entering the country illegally.

Similarly, that someone who entered Costco illegally is ultimately not allowed to make purchases because demand for membership or proof of "guest" of member will be made at the checkout ... Because Costco is a membership store.

Now, if that someone still wants to make purchases, then that someone could pay for full membership or request "one day" membership pass.

Likewise, there are different pathways to citizenship foreigners can pursue. 

But when I hear the bemoaning of long naturalization process, my sentiment is life is not fair. Not everyone is born to perfect parents with perfect genes.  Life happens but how we choose to respond, "defines us".

When we found out our parents weren't perfect, we didn't demand perfect replacement parents.  We worked with parents destined to us.  When my wife found out I wasn't perfect, she didn't divorce me for perfect replacement husband.  She worked with me and after 30 years, she says she can't divorce me because I am finally "broken in" for her and she doesn't have the energy or time to train another husband. :rofl:

My stepfather is first generation naturalized citizen from Holland who has brothers/cousins in Holland, Germany and Australia.  Wife and I considered retiring in other countries as USA is not a "perfect" country.  But we feel USA is already "broken in" for us and we don't have energy or time to "break in" another country. 

Besides, I will miss In-N-Out burgers too much as I grew up eating at In-N-Out #7 in Pasadena, CA. =D

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2025, 07:18:51 PM »
I understand your reasoning regarding the supply of benefits to being in the USand a citizen.

I still don't see a way around the text of the 14th Ammendment.   These people are clearly subject to the jurisdiction of the US, as we routinely subject them to our laws up to and including prison and deportation (for the parents)

So if they are born here, and subject to our jurisdiction, it seems like they are citizens, and we need to come up with a constitutional way of dealing with the issue.

The twisting of s9me folks in the media to make the 14th not mean what it says is very similar (to me) of the other side's current ERA delusions.

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2025, 10:07:35 PM »
I still don't see a way around the text of the 14th Ammendment.

And that's why I posted the NYT article as there seems to be a "legislative solution" that Trump can utilize for children of "unauthorized migrants" - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70325.msg1461730#msg1461730

While previous legislative attempt died in 1991 but in 2025, immigration and border security is much higher priority and I am sure some of Trumps 30 lawyers under Chief Counsel David Warrington (From NAGR) are looking into it as we speak - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1461806#msg1461806

- Their 1985 book, “Citizenship Without Consent” ... captivated conservatives who appreciated its argument that Congress did not address the issue of children of unauthorized migrants when it wrote the 14th Amendment in the 1860s and that it retained the power to resolve the ambiguity through legislation.
- In 1991, when Representative Elton Gallegly, a California Republican, sponsored a bill trying to restrict the Fourteenth Amendment, he referred to Schuck and Smith’s work ... rise in illegal immigration was a burden to law enforcement, medical facilities, schools and social welfare agencies. - When considered together with the expanded welfare state, the effects of birthright citizenship laws were “clearly harmful.”
- Bill died in committee, but support for the idea of restricting the application of the 14th Amendment grew
- “There’s a reason all developed countries have gotten rid of it,” Mark Krikorian ... “If we had 500 kids a year born to tourists or students or illegal aliens, there would be no reason to even have this debate.”
- Krikorian wants American citizenship limited to children with at least one parent who is a citizen or legal permanent resident

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2025, 07:23:17 AM »
The NYT is reta4de, and probably on cocaine.

Their assessment is stupid, as it is with every other ammendment.  The language of the 14th is pretty plain.

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2025, 09:20:11 AM »
Here's NPR's take on ending birthright citizenship (redacted/paraphrased by me) - https://www.npr.org/2024/12/26/nx-s1-5222509/what-would-it-mean-for-the-u-s-to-end-birthright-citizenship

- Trump wants to end automatic citizenship for anyone born in the US
- With 14th Amendment, birthright citizenship has been enshrined in the US Constitution since 1868
- We wanted to understand more about what it would mean to end this right
- Julia Gelatt is associate director of the US Immigration Policy Program at the Migration Policy Institute ... a nonpartisan think tank that focuses on migration worldwide
- Idea of ending birthright citizenship seems to be gaining traction
- When birthright citizenship came about in 1868 with the 14th Amendment, there weren't unauthorized immigrants in the United States like there are today
- Congress introduced bills to end birthright citizenship but none has passed into law
- Unauthorized immigration has risen in recent years and concern has increased for birthright citizenship for children of unauthorized immigrants
- Amending/removing constitutional amendment is a very arduous process
- How would ending birthright citizenship work?
- Trump administration may require applicants for passports or other federal documents prove at least one parent was US citizen or a legal resident which would immediately be litigated
- It would be up to the courts to decide whether the executive branch has the power to remove citizenship from children born in the US
- There are estimated 5 million US born children of two unauthorized immigrant parents in the United States, even grandchildren and additional 5 million by 2050 (Estimation of one unauthorized parent maybe 11 to 16 million by 2050)

And here's Associated Press take - https://apnews.com/article/birthright-citizenship-immigration-trump-20919d26029cf0f98ecb0dc7f90a066b

- What does the law say?
- In 1868 when Congress ratified the 14th Amendment, citizenship was assured for all, including Black people
- “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside ... No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.”
- But 14th Amendment didn’t always translate to everyone being afforded birthright citizenship
- Native Americans born in the US weren't granted citizenship by Congress until 1924
- In 1898, Supreme Court ruled that Wong Kim Ark, born in San Francisco to Chinese immigrants, was US citizen because he was born in the states
- But Wong case applied to children born of parents who are legal immigrants
- It’s less clear whether birthright citizenship applies to children born to parents without legal status or, for example, who come for a short-term like a tourist visa
- “That is the leading case on this. In fact, it’s the only case on this,” said Andrew Arthur, a fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies, which supports immigration restrictions. “It’s a lot more of an open legal question than most people think.”

- Words “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the 14th Amendment are used to deny citizenship to babies born to those in the country illegally ... Trump plans to use that language to end birthright citizenship
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 10:04:08 AM by Live Life »

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2025, 08:42:52 PM »
Whelp,  8 suspect we are about to learn what the courts have to say on the subject.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/protecting-the-meaning-and-value-of-american-citizenship/

Quote
Among the categories of individuals born in the United States and not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, the privilege of United States citizenship does not automatically extend to persons born in the United States:  (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa) and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth.

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,892
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2025, 09:00:51 PM »
I think its a good policy.  I strongly doubt SCOTUS will agree however.
Formerly sumpnz

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,304
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2025, 08:09:55 AM »
And there's the first Lawsuit:  https://www.aclu.org/cases/new-hampshire-indonesian-community-support-v-donald-j-trump?document=Complaint

Press release: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/immigrants-rights-advocates-sue-trump-administration-over-birthright-citizenship-executive-order

I kinda think it would be hilarious if the Admin just denied Asylum and/or Deported the plaintiffs before the birth, and mooted the suit.

On that note, I'm not sure that the lady that has applied for asylum but is waiting on a decision is affected by this EO.  As far as I know once you have applied for asylum and received a "spot in line" as it were, you are here legally.  The Refugee program is not one of the temporary programs mentioned in the EO.

Among the categories of individuals born in the United States and not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, the privilege of United States citizenship does not automatically extend to persons born in the United States:  (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa) and the father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth.

I guess the lawyers will have to figure it out.

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,892
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2025, 09:18:57 AM »
Is this EO retroactive?  I.e. say a couple is here on an H1B, and several years ago had a baby.  Does that child lose citizenship (assuming this survives court challenges)? Or is it only applicable for future such cases?
Formerly sumpnz

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,263
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2025, 09:28:18 AM »
Is this EO retroactive?  I.e. say a couple is here on an H1B, and several years ago had a baby.  Does that child lose citizenship (assuming this survives court challenges)? Or is it only applicable for future such cases?
Why would this impact an H1B recipient at all?

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2025, 09:37:01 AM »
Is this EO retroactive? ... Or is it only applicable for future such cases?

EO will apply to persons born after February 20, 2025 - https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/protecting-the-meaning-and-value-of-american-citizenship/

Quote from: The White House
Sec. 2. Policy. (a) ... no ... citizenship, to persons:  (1) when that person’s mother was unlawfully present in the United States and the person’s father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth, or (2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States was lawful but temporary, and the person’s father was not a United States citizen or lawful permanent resident at the time of said person’s birth.

Sec. 2. Policy. (b) Subsection (a) of this section shall apply only to persons who are born within the United States after 30 days from the date of this order.

... say a couple is here on an H1B, and several years ago had a baby.  Does that child lose citizenship?
Since child was born prior to 2/20/25, birthright citizenship would apply.

Children born to H1B visa parents after 2/20/25 would not qualify for citizenship because H1B visa holder is not "permanent resident" rather temporary worker.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 10:07:30 AM by Live Life »

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,892
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2025, 09:51:09 AM »
Why would this impact an H1B recipient at all?

Quote
(2) when that person’s mother’s presence in the United States at the time of said person’s birth was lawful but temporary (such as, but not limited to, visiting the United States under the auspices of the Visa Waiver Program or visiting on a student, work, or tourist visa)
Formerly sumpnz

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,263
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2025, 09:52:39 AM »
Thanks, I missed that.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,372
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2025, 11:17:04 AM »
I can say that here in the greater Seattle area, land of the dot coms, we have a whole lot of H1b moms giving birth and it will be interesting to see what happens.  I wonder if we will see an uptick in labor inductions or elective C-sections before 2/20/2025.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,892
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Is it time to end birthright citizenship?
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2025, 11:30:44 AM »
I can say that here in the greater Seattle area, land of the dot coms, we have a whole lot of H1b moms giving birth and it will be interesting to see what happens.  I wonder if we will see an uptick in labor inductions or elective C-sections before 2/20/2025.

Almost certainly. Probably will be a few that will even do it for <38 week women (without a legit medical reason). 
Formerly sumpnz