Author Topic: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)  (Read 23958 times)

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2025, 10:55:56 AM »
Let's first see what's in Bondi's report and go from there. [popcorn]

I don't have to wait.  I lived through her as FL's AG.  She's an anti-gun, big government Statist.  As Paramore so lyrically put it:
Quote
Second chances they don't ever matter, people never change
Once a whore, you're nothing more
I'm sorry, that'll never change
And about forgiveness, we're both supposed to have exchanged
I'm sorry, honey, but I passed it up

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2025, 10:26:06 AM »
CRPA President & General Counsel Chuck Michel on recent Duncan v Bonta ruling - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1469405#msg1469405

"We will seek review from the Supreme Court immediately.

That Court has already vacated an incorrect ruling from the 9th Circuit in this case once, and we expect that the Justices will do that again. It is high time for the Supreme Court to reign in lower courts that are not following the Supreme Court’s mandates as laid out in the Heller and Bruen cases, and this case presents an opportunity for the High Court to do that emphatically.”

Gun Owners of CA (Reposted by GOA) - https://x.com/GunOwnersCA/status/1903186794008699011

"The decision by the 9th in Duncan v Bonta could be the greatest gift ever.

SCOTUS already rejected the ban and sent it back to the 9th to fix, yet the 9th doubled down on stupidity.  SCOTUS should be ready to drop the hammer. GOC expects swift action on this."
« Last Edit: March 22, 2025, 08:59:35 PM by Live Life »

Ron

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #102 on: March 24, 2025, 06:19:46 AM »
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/atf-game-changer-gun-rights-scholar-nabs-chief-counsel-post

Quote
The addition of 2A Attorney and Legal Scholar Robert Leider (
@LeiderRob
) to this key role under
@FBIDirectorKash
 could be a sign that the ATF’s continued anti-gun litigation is about to come to an end.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2025, 10:42:35 PM »
I have hope, indeed, better than the absolute hopelessness of Bidet or what could have been Harris, but I certainly would like to see things move faster - I'm not getting any younger!

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2025, 11:07:26 PM »
Bidet

Not sure if that's a typo or a comment on the previous President.
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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #105 on: March 25, 2025, 05:19:10 PM »
Justice Thomas going ... "District/Circuit courts are violating Heller/Caetano/Bruen ... Second Amendment is not a second class right ... Gun owners must not become second class citizens ... District/Circuit courts are violating Heller/Caetano/Bruen ... Second Amendment is not a second class right ... Gun owners must not become second class citizens ..." [popcorn]

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2025, 11:47:28 AM »
Did VanDerStok ruling expand Heller/Caetano in defining "arm" to expand Second Amendment protection?

Supreme Court has been ruling to settle court splits and what is constitutional to set precedents as the highest court of the land.

Precedents were set in Heller that Second Amendment protection applied to modern arms that were not in existence at the time of founding in common use inside the home for self-defense unrelated to militia service, in Caetano to non-propellant/projectile based modern energy arms in common use, in Bruen to modern bearable arms outside of home for self-defense eliminating interest balancing greater good of society (mass shootings, etc.) approach with burden shifting to the government/states and in Rahimi reaffirming Bruen test/methodology of "text, history and tradition" with burden of providing historical evidence for firearm regulation analogue shifting to government/states.

And now with VanDerStok ruling, Second Amendment protection was reaffirmed to "artifact noun" produced by modern forms of manufacturing (3D printing, etc.) rapidly proliferating to become in common use that is evolving into metal 3D printing which allows individuals to create affordable and reliable "artifact noun" at home.

What is "artifact noun"?

On page two of VanDerStok Supreme Court majority opinion, we find,
Quote
When Congress adopted the GCA in 1968, “the milling equipment, materials needed, and designs were far too expensive for individuals to make firearms practically or reliably on their own."  With the introduction of new technologies like 3D  printing and reinforced polymers, that is no longer true.  Today, companies are able to make and sell weapon parts kits that individuals can assemble into functional firearms in their own homes.
And in near future, individuals will be able to make replacement weapon parts or functional firearms in their own homes.

On page 10 of majority opinion, we find,
Quote
The term "weapon" is an artifact noun - a word for a thing created by humans.

So the Supreme Court just reaffirmed Second Amendment protection to modern "artifact noun", modern "thing" created by modern "milling equipment" now affordable for "individuals to make firearms ... in their own homes"?

And on page 15, we find,
Quote
Imagine a kit identical to Polymer80’s in all respects, except that it has a complete frame. Even the plaintiffs would have to admit that such a kit would count as a “weapon” ...

Imagine a day in near future where metal 3D printing can produce all the parts of a firearm including frame/receiver like this 1911 - https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/170574-the-worlds-first-3d-printed-metal-gun-is-a-beautiful-45-caliber-m1911-pistol

Using VanDerStok ruling, Supreme Court could expand Second Amendment protection even further by applying "artifact noun" to modern "milling equipment".  Instead of purchasing parts/guns from stores/online, future trend may become where "individuals ... make firearms ... in their own homes" as stated by Justice Gorsuch.

I am still processing VanDerStok ruling but more and more, the narrow ruling seems to do with serializing "artifact noun".
« Last Edit: March 28, 2025, 08:27:27 PM by Live Life »

tokugawa

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2025, 10:41:36 AM »
The really humorous thing (in a quirky sort of way) is the leftist focus on firearms generally.
It would be the same sort of thing as the English worrying about Mounted Lancers in 1910.

Firearms, are simply a delivery system for a chunk of single purpose, unguided metal.

Drones, now- a delivery system for multi purpose goods, guided to destination, even out of line of sight.


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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #108 on: April 01, 2025, 11:02:09 PM »
Here's a case I am really interested in [popcorn] ... Sanchez v Bonta (CA suppressor ban) - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1470737#msg1470737

When a Californian wanted to 3D print a suppressor and applied for federal authorization, he was denied because suppressors are illegal in CA and federal district court dismissed the case incorrectly ruling suppressors are not "arms" protected by the Second Amendment.

After the case was appealed to the 9th Circuit and court inclined to appoint pro bono counsel representation, CRPA and Cooper & Kirk lawyers reached out to Mr. Sanchez to offer their assistance. 👍

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2025, 08:29:23 AM »
I know some had concern over Pam Bondi's past stance on 2A but DOJ/ATF's announcement should clear where she stands now and how DOJ/ATF will work to fulfill Executive Order on Second Amendment - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1471269#msg1471269

"This Department of Justice believes that the 2nd Amendment is not a second-class right" ... Which mirrors what Justice Thomas has stated - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70469.msg1469970#msg1469970

Quote
ATF Press Release

DOJ, ATF Repeal FFL Inspection Policy and Begin Review of Two Final Rules - https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/doj-atf-repeal-ffl-inspection-policy-and-begin-review-two-final-rules

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Department of Justice and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced today the repeal of the Enhanced Regulatory Enforcement Policy and the review of Final Rule 2021R-08F, related to stabilizing braces, and Final Rule 2022R-17F, related to the definition of “engaging in the business” of firearms dealing ...

This Department of Justice believes that the 2nd Amendment is not a second-class right,” said U.S. Attorney General Pamela Bondi. “The prior administration’s ‘Zero Tolerance’ policy unfairly targeted law-abiding gun owners and created an undue burden on Americans seeking to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms – it ends today.”

“Today’s repeal of the Zero Tolerance Policy and the comprehensive review of stabilizing brace regulations and the definition of ‘engaged in the business’ marks a pivotal step toward restoring fairness and clarity in firearms regulation,” said Acting ATF Director Kash Patel. “We are committed to working with all stakeholders to ensure our policies are balanced, constitutional and protective of Americans’ Second Amendment rights.”

The decision to review the Stabilizing Brace rule, which sought to reclassify certain firearms as short-barreled rifles, as well as revising the guidelines for determining who is considered "engaged in the business" of selling firearms, reiterates constitutional approaches to firearm regulations.

The DOJ and ATF will conduct an in-depth review over the coming months and will engage in consultations with stakeholders, including gun rights organizations, industry leaders and legal experts. Further updates on the status of these reviews will be released in due course.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2025, 08:41:38 AM by Live Life »

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #110 on: April 08, 2025, 08:53:42 AM »
And yet Patrick Adamiak is still in jail.

They are lying to you.  The DOJ is still actively pursuing anti-2A prosecutions.  Stop carrying water for the Statists.

I'll reconsider when you can name ONE federal prosecution for firearms related charges the DOJ has dropped, or even paused.  ONE rule they have stopped defending in court or filed a petition to settle a lawsuit.  Name ONE concrete Pro-2A thing the DOJ has done since Jan.  Hiring people is cheap (Hell she promoted the guy that led the J6 witch hunt) and press releases are free.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #111 on: April 08, 2025, 11:27:37 AM »
It's good to be cautious and yes, there's been a lot of "talk/press releases" but not much "action".  We are still waiting on AG Pam Bondi's report in response to Executive Order on the Second Amendment.

But having lived in CA as "second class citizen" with "second class right" for decades, I am glad we dodged Hillary bullet in 2016 and Harris bullet in 2024 who promised anti-2A policies and agendas to be carried out for certain.
So I am willing to see what unfolds under Trump administration/DOJ/ATF. [popcorn]


Ben

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #112 on: April 08, 2025, 12:16:59 PM »
I'll post kinda the same thing I posted at Guns and Gadgets this morning: I guess this stuff is okay, but they have had ample opportunity to do quick stuff that has good effect - especially from the PR side. Under Biden, somehow the ATF was able to wave their hand one day and pause the $200 tax stamp in exchange for people registering their newly created SBRs under the stupid brace rule.

If they can do it for gun registration, then why can't Kash wave his hand and pause the $200 in the name of gun rights? Even if only temporary for four years, that's still four years of people not having to pay a ridiculous tax.

That's only one example. There's like a half dozen things they can do with a wave of their hands, which even if only temporary, would show they are doing something that's actually tangible to a large swath of gun owners.
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Pb

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2025, 10:33:56 AM »
That's only one example. There's like a half dozen things they can do with a wave of their hands, which even if only temporary, would show they are doing something that's actually tangible to a large swath of gun owners.

Yes... they could
1) allow the importation of lots more types of guns by changing their definition of "sporting purpose."
2) sue states that with gun bans, since it interferes with the ability of the militia to arm itself
3) machine gun amnesty (maybe)
4) declare that trusts can register new machine guns, since they aren't people (maybe!)

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2025, 12:12:45 PM »
*expletive deleted*it they could just *stop* litigating current cases.  Submit a motion that the Plaintiff's are correct, and the .gov agrees with them.

Poof. Case law.

They could submit a petition to the court to release the guy in jail that is only there because an ATF agent perjured themselves on the stand.  Let him out of prison and write him a check to cover the trouble.

Live Life has been " waiting on AG Pam Bondi's report in response to Executive Order on the Second Amendment." for two gods-damned months.  Let me help:  She ain't going to do *expletive deleted*it except the bare minimum of press releases to keep the base from revolting.  Pam Bondi is not a friend of the 2A.  Trump is not a friend of the 2A.  At BEST they are OK with the right kind of people having regulated firearms, as long as the cops don't mind too much.  I TOLD you this already.  Bondi was already my AG once.  But whatever, keep wishing on a star.

In Live Life's defense: he's been steeped in statist thought and deed for so long even this red tinged statist "lite" seems like freedom to him.

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2025, 12:58:11 PM »
For Clarity:  I'm not trying to be a dick, but so so so often people get wound up in the political "our team is in charge" and cheerlead despite the fact that nothing is happening.  The same thing is happening with DOGE right now.  All the smoke and thunder about fraud being found and this that and the other, but those funds are still appropriated, and the Executive Branch is still obligated by law to spend them on those departments by Sep 30.  Nothing has been saved.

Trump and 2A is the same thing.  He talks and talks, hires the "right" people, releases EO's and the like and what happens?  Bump Stock ban by fiat that opened the door to 6 years of random administrative rulemaking and millions of dollars in court battles that winning just got us back to where we were in 2018 (except in FL where Pam Bondi thought it was such a god idea she helped the state pass a law on it).  Are they better than Hillary or Harris? Sure probably, although those two would have been shackled by the same lack of legislative action.

But are they good?  No. Their action clearly prove they are not.  Stop carrying water for them that they than spit on you with.  When they show some actual action we should have a discussion thread.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2025, 01:19:30 PM »
I will take Trump administration/DOJ over Hillary/Harris administration/DOJ ANY DAY (And apparently, many voters shared that sentiment in November 2024).

IMO, hope and slow pro-2A, even minimal activity for Second Amendment are WAY BETTER than assurance of anti-2A activity of CERTAINTY. :rofl:

And just what happened during 2020-2024 under Biden and his handlers administration for Second Amendment?  We all KNOW what happened. :mad:

Let's have a vote of hands:

Who would prefer Trump over Hillary/Harris regards to Second Amendment?

And why?  ;) =D

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2025, 01:31:50 PM »
For Clarity:  I'm not trying to be a dick, but so so so often people get wound up in the political "our team is in charge" and cheerlead despite the fact that nothing is happening.  The same thing is happening with DOGE right now.  All the smoke and thunder about fraud being found and this that and the other, but those funds are still appropriated, and the Executive Branch is still obligated by law to spend them on those departments by Sep 30.  Nothing has been saved.

Trump and 2A is the same thing.  He talks and talks, hires the "right" people, releases EO's and the like and what happens?  Bump Stock ban by fiat that opened the door to 6 years of random administrative rulemaking and millions of dollars in court battles that winning just got us back to where we were in 2018 (except in FL where Pam Bondi thought it was such a god idea she helped the state pass a law on it).  Are they better than Hillary or Harris? Sure probably, although those two would have been shackled by the same lack of legislative action.

But are they good?  No. Their action clearly prove they are not.  Stop carrying water for them that they than spit on you with.  When they show some actual action we should have a discussion thread.
And where does it get us to declare them enemies and attack them?  We actually have a shot at forcing some positive action with the current administration.  Can't say that with anyone else.  No reason to give up because they haven't jumped through hoops to complete all the things we personally wanted in the first few months. 

It is partly for dogmush's reason I didn't like them putting Kash in charge at the ATF as he has a lot of other things to do and other priorities.  However, I get the impression the administration was looking at a lot of resistance in the Senate for a truly pro-gun nominee.  Only need a few anti-gun Republicans to torpedo a nominee.  Similar to the problem with cutting spending.  Trump can stop fraud and discretionary spending, but he needs Congressional action to do more.  At this point, I am not certian how much permanent change we can expect in this first 2 years. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2025, 02:12:21 PM »
And where does it get us to declare them enemies and attack them?  We actually have a shot at forcing some positive action with the current administration.  Can't say that with anyone else.  No reason to give up because they haven't jumped through hoops to complete all the things we personally wanted in the first few months. 


I attacked Bondi before her confirmation, because she was (IMO) a bad nominee.  At this point, I'm not attacking her (i.e. contacting my senators to vote against her, giving money to lawyers fighting her) because I lost that fight.  What I am doing, and pushing for others to do, is recognize that whatever else Trump hired her for, she is not our friend on this issue.  We should be constantly reminding her that we know the DOJ is not our friend, we are watching their every move closely, and we will attack anything they do that resembles the moves they have taken in the past (Red Flag Laws, Administrative banning of parts/accessories, Pushing for laws that ban accessories for being "scary").  2A social media should be "Well we're stuck with Bondi.  Everyone hope enjoy the immigration stuff, but make sure she knows not to try the anti-gun stuff again."  and "Well Trump was better than Kamala by far, but remember he hurt us bad on guns in the first term, we're watching again".  We don't have to attack them, but every time they so much as breath "2A" there should be a chorus of "We're watching you, don't *expletive deleted*ck this up!!"

Additionally, as we go into the 5 and 6 months of this presidency, it is appropriate to attempt to hold them accountable for the lack of movement.  I know the administration is busy with immigration and the trade war, but like I said, DOJ doesn't even realy need to do anything.  They just need to STOP doing the anti-2A things that are currently still moving forward, either out of malice or bureaucratic inertia.

If the Executive and the DOJ actually do anything good for the 2A then we can adjust fire, but it seems many are ignoring their real past history of damaging rights in favor of promises and press releases.  Similar to the Epstein List, they are talking a big game and doing nothing. 

So the short answer to MechAg is: *I* didn't declare them my enemy, they declared it by their past actions.  Demanding they take concrete action to correct that declaration get's us that concrete action.  Taking them at their press release word gets us nothing, because they learn that they can appease this lobby with shiny words, and we will overlook their harmful actions.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2025, 03:15:38 PM »
DOJ doesn't even realy need to do anything.  They just need to STOP doing the anti-2A things that are currently still moving forward, either out of malice or bureaucratic inertia
This I absolutely agree with.  Pro-2A directive came down from President Trump via Executive Order on 2A ... Yes, that EO is still very much ACTIVE.  So DOJ and ATF and all other executive agencies MUST do an about face from anti-2A stance and immediately act to FULFILL that Presidential Directive without delay or shuffling of feet that they seem/appear to be doing.

Sure, pro-2A press releases are cutesy but I agree they do nothing actual and permanent.  Instead, do the job you were hired to do and actually RELEASE the response report to President's EO on 2A as to how DOJ/ATF will COMPLY with President's EO on 2A SPELLING OUT exactly what, how and when they will be done.

Gun owners and 2A supporters ALL KNOW what exactly happened with bump stock along with NRA (I was really dismayed) ... Really?  NRA throwing gun owners/2A under the bus with POTUS who campaigned on 2A?  Wow ... Holy S**t ... Thank goodness Supreme Court ruled executive branch cannot exceed authority by unilaterally doing stupid anti-2A thing like that and pointed back at legislative branch which chose not to redefine what a machinegun is so bump stock remains NOT A machinegun (Why did they do that?  I am still mad at NRA and my money has gone to other 2A organizations until I am not mad at NRA anymore ... May not happen before I die and I am not seeing much action from NRA to change my mind)

So, yes we are ALL WATCHING ... cautiously being polite/courteous because Trump is STILL way way better than the alternatives who came right out said they would take our guns away.  But we are cautiously watching.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2025, 03:40:24 PM by Live Life »

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2025, 03:28:39 PM »
And where does it get us to declare them enemies and attack them?  We actually have a shot at forcing some positive action with the current administration.  Can't say that with anyone else.  No reason to give up because they haven't jumped through hoops to complete all the things we personally wanted in the first few months.
Yes, true.

We may not be happy with Trump administration's pace and quantity of pro-2A actions taken so far, it is FAR BETTER than alternatives who are self-professed gun grabbers. 

And while there's little to no media coverage, my other 2A/ATF related cases thread has tracked various pro-2A bills introduced and reintroduced that have potential to actually become laws and Trump promised he would sign pro-2A bills that end up on his desk - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1469077#msg1469077

So things are perhaps as good as they could be FOR NOW as things certainly could be much much worse.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #121 on: April 11, 2025, 11:24:05 PM »
... actually RELEASE the response report to President's EO on 2A as to how DOJ/ATF will COMPLY with President's EO on 2A SPELLING OUT exactly what, how and when they will be done.

AG Pam Bondi forming 2nd Amendment Task Force is a good start - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1471495#msg1471495

Quote
... President Trump has made protecting the Second Amendment rights a priority for this administration. As he explained, "the Second Amendment is an indispensable safeguard of security and liberty," because it "is foundational to maintaining all other rights held by Americans." Executive Order 14206 § 1 (Protecting Second Amendment Rights). To that end, President Trump has directed me to propose a plan of action designed "to protect the Second Amendment rights of all Americans." Id. § 2(a).

As one element of a comprehensive plan of action that I am proposing to the President, I am hereby creating a Second Amendment Enforcement Task Force. This task force will continue the Department's ongoing work to implement Executive Order 14206 and protect the fundamental right secured by the Second Amendment. The Task Force is principally charged with developing and executing strategies to use litigation and policy to advance, protect, and promote compliance with the Second Amendment...

dogmush

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2025, 02:52:53 PM »
DOJ is still actively pursuing a case charging someone with possession of an unregistered SBR (pistol brace) while simultaneously charging him with possession of a pistol in DC.  For the same gun.

https://x.com/GunOwners/status/1911459994261753998?t=phWuFeRmb3KBQclwKcJcgQ&s=19

Case:https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67607958/united-states-v-taranto/?page=2

I eagerly await the carefully worded letter from Bondi's 2A task force on why DOJ is pursuing these charges.

Oh, wait.  He's a Jan 6er.  DOJ is gonna bury him.

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #123 on: April 13, 2025, 03:10:36 PM »
DOJ is still actively pursuing a case charging someone with possession of an unregistered SBR (pistol brace) while simultaneously charging him with possession of a pistol in DC.  For the same gun.
Yes, action speaks louder than words.

We are seeing many actions by DOJ/ATF that is inconsistent with Executive Order on Second Amendment and press releases by AG Pam Bondi.  Perhaps I could consider these actions by Biden-era/Anti-2A bureaucrats to be reeled in/reversed by new ATF Chief Counsel and subsequent staff but we are watching closely what is unfolding before everyone's eyes.

Action speaks louder than words and growing really curious what is contained in AG Pam Bondi's report as to exactly when/how ACTIONS will be taken to fulfill 2A EO. [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

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Re: Second Amendment/ATF related issues (Discussion thread)
« Reply #124 on: April 14, 2025, 05:09:57 PM »
While DOJ investigates restrictive 2A laws in CA - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1470221#msg1470221

Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms makes a recommendation for AG Pam Bondi's 2A Task Force.

2A TASK FORCE SHOULD FOCUS ON 12 STATES - https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=70249.msg1471903#msg1471903