Author Topic: Midair Collision at Reagan International  (Read 1492 times)

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Midair Collision at Reagan International
« on: January 29, 2025, 11:16:29 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbKmhNoTvW8

American Airlines 5342 collided with a Blackhawk helicopter in the dark of night and crashed into the Potomac.

I've heard reported that 3 were aboard the Blackhawk, no word on count of people on the jet.  It's supposed to be a smaller regional jet, supposedly only around 70 or so aboard.

Water temp is around 36 degrees.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,478
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2025, 07:18:00 AM »
60 plus on the jet.

I heard this this morning and just about had a heart attack. My nephew flies for an American regional carrier (Envoy).

This one was an American Eagle Bombardier jet operated by PSA, so that wasn't my nephew's (Envoy only flies Embraer 175s).

From news reports on WTOP (local news radio) the ATC tapes indicate that the chopper was told to come in behind the jet. It didn't.

Video I've seen shows a fireball and what appears to be both aircraft dropping into the river.
MAGA unto others as you would have them MAGA unto you!

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,303
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2025, 08:22:24 AM »
Scott Manley didn't waste any words

https://x.com/DJSnM/status/1884797697816936633
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,303
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2025, 08:41:50 AM »
Quote
Scott Manley
@DJSnM
The GPS approach into RWY 33 has a 3.1 degree glide slope, which means at the 3300 feet from the runway they would be at about 175-200'. That's the same altitude reported by the helicopter.
https://x.com/DJSnM/status/1884805580998770705

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,092
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2025, 09:34:28 AM »
No survivors.

It won't help the victims, but I'll be very interested in reading the NTSB report. I would like to listen to the ATC tapes.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2025, 09:44:56 AM »
From what I've heard so far, the Blackhawk was instructed by ATC to come in behind the AA jet, but he T-boned it instead.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,303
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2025, 09:53:56 AM »
From what I've heard so far, the Blackhawk was instructed by ATC to come in behind the AA jet, but he T-boned it instead.

Saw some speculation that he may have had his eyes on the wrong plane to get behind. If so it would explain a few things.
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2025, 09:55:24 AM »
Blackhawk wasn't broadcasting ADS-B, according to this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBJpxq9WZ1E
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,644
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2025, 09:58:15 AM »
Blackhawk wasn't broadcasting ADS-B, according to this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBJpxq9WZ1E

They were in commercial airspace and not broadcasting? WTF?

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 49,033
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2025, 10:10:57 AM »
Way, way too early to speculate, but I'm gonna anyway. So far it seems that the plane for sure was following standard procedures, plus if it was on final, that much less probability of them having done something wrong. Maybe NOT done something in time, but we don't know yet. News I heard said that the Blackhawk was on a transport flight, but I wonder if that was accurate. I'm curious if maybe it was on a training flight, like maybe IFR training for the pilot or something, and things went wrong and the instructor pilot didn't catch it in time.

I don't want to place blame with so little information, but it seems to be pointing to a problem with the helo.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2025, 10:12:11 AM »
Way, way too early to speculate, but I'm gonna anyway. So far it seems that the plane for sure was following standard procedures, plus if it was on final, that much less probability of them having done something wrong. Maybe NOT done something in time, but we don't know yet. News I heard said that the Blackhawk was on a transport flight, but I wonder if that was accurate. I'm curious if maybe it was on a training flight, like maybe IFR training for the pilot or something, and things went wrong and the instructor pilot didn't catch it in time.

I don't want to place blame with so little information, but it seems to be pointing to a problem with the helo.

I've heard it was a training flight, it's a branch of the Army that does VIP transport but had no VIPs aboard during this training flight.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,644
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2025, 10:15:16 AM »
Way, way too early to speculate, but I'm gonna anyway. So far it seems that the plane for sure was following standard procedures, plus if it was on final, that much less probability of them having done something wrong. Maybe NOT done something in time, but we don't know yet. News I heard said that the Blackhawk was on a transport flight, but I wonder if that was accurate. I'm curious if maybe it was on a training flight, like maybe IFR training for the pilot or something, and things went wrong and the instructor pilot didn't catch it in time.

I don't want to place blame with so little information, but it seems to be pointing to a problem with the helo.

Agreed. If the commercial flight was on final, ostensibly following ATC commands, and not on some kind of irregular flight plan/path, then everything leans heavily to error on the copter's part.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,478
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2025, 10:18:53 AM »
Saw some speculation that he may have had his eyes on the wrong plane to get behind. If so it would explain a few things.

Fox had a decorated career helicopter pilot on this morning, a retired Col., I believe. He said at night, when looking at just lights, it can be very disorienting.

He said one time they were flying in Korea and thought they were following a ground object and it turned out to be a 747 on approach, and that put them way out of position and WAY closer to the 747 than they anticipated.
MAGA unto others as you would have them MAGA unto you!

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 49,033
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2025, 11:01:13 AM »
Fox had a decorated career helicopter pilot on this morning, a retired Col., I believe. He said at night, when looking at just lights, it can be very disorienting.

More Ben speculation, but it being a Blackhawk, I suppose NVG training could be a possibility. That can make lights look disorienting.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,478
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2025, 12:06:14 PM »
There were also questions about NVG, but I missed part of that response, and I don't believe it's known yet if the pilots were doing NV flight training.
MAGA unto others as you would have them MAGA unto you!

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,299
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2025, 02:48:42 PM »
I kinda wonder what Jamis thinks about this.  He's not saying *expletive deleted*it on FB, which is probably pretty wise.

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,782
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2025, 03:06:26 PM »
From what I remember about helos flying through terminal airspace the helo would have had to call the tower to get clearance to cross the Terminal Control Area (TCA) or the airfield airspace. The area also is Class B airspace, which is some of tightest controlled airspace around. There is a possibility the helo was flying VFR which puts the responsibility to see and avoid more on them than the jet on final who would be under control of approach. As far as NVG, I kind of think they weren't on NVG in that airspace, there is too much going on and too many points of ambient light and if they were it would probably be that only one pilot, the one at the controls, would be on goggles and the other watching both inside and outside. My aviation knowledge is kind of dated but procedures don't change that much, especially if they have been shown to work. I think when it is all said and done it will be like most aircraft accident with the majority of the blame placed on the helo crew. A lot of things make up the chain leading to an aircraft accident, break one link and everyone goes home, keep it intact and you have a tragic outcome.

bob
« Last Edit: January 30, 2025, 03:32:32 PM by BobR »

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47,478
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2025, 03:47:20 PM »
I kinda wonder what Jamis thinks about this.  He's not saying *expletive deleted*it on FB, which is probably pretty wise.


My guess is he's not going to, either. At least not for awhile.
MAGA unto others as you would have them MAGA unto you!

Dogs are our link to paradise. They don’t know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring—it was peace. — Milan Kundera


The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind
-- Theodorus Gaza

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,644
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2025, 03:54:17 PM »
I kinda wonder what Jamis thinks about this.  He's not saying *expletive deleted*it on FB, which is probably pretty wise.

If I were him I'd be tight-lipped, too.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,154
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2025, 04:04:20 PM »
Agreed. If the commercial flight was on final, ostensibly following ATC commands, and not on some kind of irregular flight plan/path, then everything leans heavily to error on the copter's part.

Brad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90Xw3tQC0I

Several minutes prior, PAT25 (the helo) requested visual separation and confirmed the AA flight was in view and knew of its landing approach.

Watching vectors, perhaps the helo pilot assumed the AA flight was headed to runway 1 rather than 33.   But he confirmed visual separation twice, and then zigged into the approach path ahead of the jet rather than zagging behind.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 49,033
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2025, 07:09:28 PM »
S2 Underground has a few interesting points, to include, ATC was apparently in non-standard operation with only one controller doing a duty that is normally done by two. The Blackhawk is designated for VIP transport, and the crew was doing a COOP (Continuity of Operations) training flight. I wonder if such a flight operates under some special conditions that would have it doing non-standard maneuvering on takeoff (for instance to get some designated survivor out of Dodge in a hurry)? It sounded like conditions were if not IFR, then SVFR.

https://youtu.be/TEckMxqT5lo
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,092
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2025, 07:20:45 PM »
S2 Underground has a few interesting points, to include, ATC was apparently in non-standard operation with only one controller doing a duty that is normally done by two. The Blackhawk is designated for VIP transport, and the crew was doing a COOP (Continuity of Operations) training flight. I wonder if such a flight operates under some special conditions that would have it doing non-standard maneuvering on takeoff (for instance to get some designated survivor out of Dodge in a hurry)? It sounded like conditions were if not IFR, then SVFR.

https://youtu.be/TEckMxqT5lo

The chopper was taking off from Joint Base Anacosta-Bolling, which is directly across the river from Reagan National Airport (on the Maryland side, but within the District of Columbia). It seems unlikely that VIPs would be evacuated from there. That's the home base for the detachment to which the helo belonged.

From what reports I've read so far, the chopper was flying VFR and was supposed to be operating under visual separation. The tower asked him multiple times if he saw the regional jet, and instructed him to pass behind it. There is speculation that he may have misidentified another aircraft as the one he was supposed to be looking out for.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,092
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2025, 08:40:48 PM »
Wrong again. Apparently the chopper had NOT just taken off from Joint Base Anacosta-Bolling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,366
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2025, 09:06:09 PM »
I just watched the Trump press conference in which the President stated that DEI could have contributed to the crash, and when asked to cite evidence for this, said that he had common sense.

This article quotes some of the press conference: https://fortune.com/2025/01/30/trump-blames-dei-dc-plane-crash-without-citing-evidence-american-airlines/

_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,886
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2025, 09:32:07 PM »
I just watched the Trump press conference in which the President stated that DEI could have contributed to the crash, and when asked to cite evidence for this, said that he had common sense.

This article quotes some of the press conference: https://fortune.com/2025/01/30/trump-blames-dei-dc-plane-crash-without-citing-evidence-american-airlines/



Could it have?  Sure.  Did it?  Very hard to say yet.  Unless the chopper pilot, or ATC controller, or airline pilot was clearly incompetent but retained due to DEI.  Which is rather unlikely to be knowable to Trump at this point.  Even if it turns out some fault lies with a person who's a minority that doesn't mean anything becauselots of them are very competent and would have the job without DEI.
Formerly sumpnz