Midair Collision at Reagan International

[dogmush]

On these aircraft, RADAR altimeters.

[Hawkmoon]

On these aircraft, RADAR altimeters.

But a radar altimeter returns a true height above terrain, not a navigational altitude referenced to sea level. The altitudes called out on that navigational chart aren't radar altitudes, they are barometric altitudes. Wouldn't a military helicopter need both?

[dogmush]

I assume a -60 does indeed have both, but i swore I saw somewhere in the earlier articles that the helo corridor altitude was 200'AGL, which is why the RADAR altimeter is relevant here.

Even if I'm incorrect,  I think we can assume the VIP transport helo had the appropriate avionics for that transit.

[BobR]

They would have both. Most Rad Alts peter out at about 2-3K AGL. Primary instrument in there would most likely be Baro Alt with Rad Alt as backup. Just a SWAG.

bob

[WLJ]

FAA reducing the allowed max number of arrivals at Reagan I from 28 to 26 per hour

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14368989/faa-huge-safety-update-dc-plane-crash.html

Also in the article this tidbit

Retired US Army National Guard pilot Darrell Feller told ABC News this week the American Airlines crash reminded him of a terrifying incident a decade ago.

Feller said he was piloting a military helicopter along the Potomac River near Reagan Airport when an air traffic controller warned him about a passenger jet landing on runway 3-3 - the same runway the American Airlines jet was landing on when it crashed.

He recalled the lights of DC made it impossible to see the jetliner, and he was forced to descend to just 50ft over the river to ensure he would be far lower than the passenger jet.

Feller theorized similar conditions may have led to the American Airlines disaster, recalling: 'I could not see him, I lost him in the city lights... it did scare me.'

[Boomhauer]

Heavy city lights definitely washes your vision out. I never liked flying over urban areas at night for this reason. You can wash out airport lighting easily as well, making it harder to positively ID your location in relation to the airport.

That’s a bad combo in busy airspace.

[MechAg94]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtEdYrnJKxU
SHOCK: Dark TRUTH About Deadly DC Crash Revealed: Female Army Pilot REFUSED Orders! 'Intentional'

Benny loves sensational video titles.  I don't know if this is new information.  Saying the woman pilot ignored direct orders to change course including from her co-pilot instructor and instead flew straight into the airliner.  I guess he is saying it appears to be deliberate. 

[BobR]

Heavy city lights definitely washes your vision out. I never liked flying over urban areas at night for this reason. You can wash out airport lighting easily as well, making it harder to positively ID your location in relation to the airport.

That’s a bad combo in busy airspace.

I was stationed in Warminster, PA which was about 30 miles north of Philadelphia. We had our military airfield, another military runway about 2 miles off of ours, all of the suburban lights and a few other airports in the area. It was a major pain in the ass picking out the beacon when arriving at night. On top of that we did not have a split white beam because of the proximity to NAS Willow Grove who had the split beam. Thankfully we always landed at the right place.

bob

[Boomhauer]

I was stationed in Warminster, PA which was about 30 miles north of Philadelphia. We had our military airfield, another military runway about 2 miles off of ours, all of the suburban lights and a few other airports in the area. It was a major pain in the ass picking out the beacon when arriving at night. On top of that we did not have a split white beam because of the proximity to NAS Willow Grove who had the split beam. Thankfully we always landed at the right place.

bob

The GA airport my father, my uncle, and I all learned to fly at is 6 miles away from a regional airport.

In 1986 a Piedmont Airlines 737 landed by accident after confusing the beacons at night

It turned into quite a short field landing but they safely stopped. Damn near burned up the brakes

https://www.augustachronicle.com/story/news/2016/12/05/you-remembered-landing-wrong-airport/14274970007/

[Boomhauer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtEdYrnJKxU
SHOCK: Dark TRUTH About Deadly DC Crash Revealed: Female Army Pilot REFUSED Orders! 'Intentional'

Benny loves sensational video titles.  I don't know if this is new information.  Saying the woman pilot ignored direct orders to change course including from her co-pilot instructor and instead flew straight into the airliner.  I guess he is saying it appears to be deliberate. 

JamisJockey says the radio transmissions from the tower were stepped on and the help crew never heard the order.

[Hawkmoon]

JamisJockey says the radio transmissions from the tower were stepped on and the help crew never heard the order.

That makes more sense.

[K Frame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtEdYrnJKxU
SHOCK: Dark TRUTH About Deadly DC Crash Revealed: Female Army Pilot REFUSED Orders! 'Intentional'

Benny loves sensational video titles.  I don't know if this is new information.  Saying the woman pilot ignored direct orders to change course including from her co-pilot instructor and instead flew straight into the airliner.  I guess he is saying it appears to be deliberate. 

I've watched some of his videos. The guy is a *expletive deleted*ing muppet. To me his videos are several levels below click bait, and less informative.

[Perd Hapley]

I've watched some of his videos. The guy is a *expletive deleted*ing muppet. To me his videos are several levels below click bait, and less informative.

No, I think he's right at click bait. Just right there.

[WLJ]

Yeah, saw some videos and a few posts on X pop up about that. Decided to ignore them until I saw something with more substance.

[K Frame]

Another point about that "expose headline" in that video...

Yeah, it's sensationalist, but it is, at best, accusing the female pilot of incompetence, at worse, dereliction of duty and outright manslaughter, if not murder.

I don't think anything even remotely close to a final report has been issued on the accident, so I'd say he needs to be very careful posting stuff like that lest it come back to haunt him in a substantial financial way if the pilot's family decides to take action.

[MechAg94]

The "new" information was the instructor pilot was also ordering her to change course as well.  Would crew member communications get stepped on by radio transmissions?   


On Benny Johnson, I don't have too much of an issue with his video, I just ignore the his video titles. 

[Ron]

PJ media article seeming to indicate bad judgement on pilots part.

I suspect these facts were known all along, that would explain Trump blaming DEI right out of the gate.

https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2025/04/27/ny-times-downplays-pilot-error-in-deadly-dc-crash-to-push-preferred-narrative-n4939283

[Hawkmoon]

PJ media article seeming to indicate bad judgement on pilots part.

I suspect these facts were known all along, that would explain Trump blaming DEI right out of the gate.

https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2025/04/27/ny-times-downplays-pilot-error-in-deadly-dc-crash-to-push-preferred-narrative-n4939283

I believe most of this has been common knowledge. The pilot was an officer who had been working as a staffer in Biden's White House. Once the Trump team took over, she had to go back to being a military officer, so she needed a check ride to regain her flight status. It was known that she was well over the assigned altitude for that route. She was also off course, too close to the center of the river rather than hugging the Virginia shoreline.

[MechAg94]

I believe most of this has been common knowledge. The pilot was an officer who had been working as a staffer in Biden's White House. Once the Trump team took over, she had to go back to being a military officer, so she needed a check ride to regain her flight status. It was known that she was well over the assigned altitude for that route. She was also off course, too close to the center of the river rather than hugging the Virginia shoreline.

It is sort of amazing how the competing priorities of political correctness can snowball into an assumed cover up and conspiracy on the part of govt officials to conceal information.  Being up front and honest about the details should always come first.  Makes things a lot simpler. 

[tokugawa]

I believe most of this has been common knowledge. The pilot was an officer who had been working as a staffer in Biden's White House. Once the Trump team took over, she had to go back to being a military officer, so she needed a check ride to regain her flight status. It was known that she was well over the assigned altitude for that route. She was also off course, too close to the center of the river rather than hugging the Virginia shoreline.

 Wonder how long it had been since she flew, was this her first flight after WH service, and if so, why it would be conducted in such tight airspace.

[WLJ]

Still unclear to me. Is any of this from the CVR? And if yes was she ignoring the instructor?

[Hawkmoon]

Has some sort of report on this crash been released recently? I'm seeing it in the news again. And, as always, it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Some of the articles and YouTube videos I've seen seem determined to make it all the fault of the female pilot and DEI, while articles and YouTube videos sympathetic to her or to women and DEI in general completely gloss over or misstate known facsts in an effort to deflect criticism of her.

For example:

https://www.ladbible.com/news/us-news/american-airlines-crash-helicopter-pilot-mistakes-501147-20250428

She had accumulated a host of awards during her tenure, including an Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal and Army Service Ribbon.

I served as an enlisted man for two years during the Vietnam kerfuffle. We received the National Defense Service Medal upon completion of Army Basic Training. I'm not impressed that she got an Army Commendation Medal. I was awarded the ARCOM twice in my two year enlistment -- basically for just doing my job and not causing my superiors any problems. The Army Achievement Medal is a lower award than the ARCOM and until recently was not awarded at all in combat zones. It's the lowest personal achievement medal awarded in the Army, and it's basically another reward for not creating problems for the higher-ups. As for the Army Service Ribbon, that's like the NDSM, awarded for successful completion of initial-entry training, which for officers is considered to be successful completion of their basic/orientation course.

For my two years of active duty, I was awarded seven medals -- none of which in any way made me any more special as a soldier than anyone else who wasn't a complete screw-up. Color me not impressed by her "host" of awards.

[Boomhauer]

Still unclear to me. Is any of this from the CVR? And if yes was she ignoring the instructor?

One of the major purposes of an instructor is to take the controls over in a situation, preferably BEFORE it gets to the point of danger. So if the instructor felt that they were in imminent danger he should have grabbed the controls, announced it, and guided them away from danger. In a tight situation he should already be following on the controls ready to take over immediately.

[dogmush]

As far as I can tell, no.  No new reports have been issued.  There were several news stories based on partial data from the -60's CVR, but I have been unable to find a transcript or recording of the whole thing, and I've been looking.

The official Army Safety system (where they put all the completed accident reports) does not have a completed investigation for this.  (at least not at my level of access)

I also haven't been able to determine if the reported comment from the Chief was like "Go LEFT NOW!" or "I think ATC wants us farther left."  Which are very different comments.

In any case, the collision is clearly crew failure of the -60 crew.  The CPT was flying and flew into an Airliner.  The CW2 was not keeping a good enough eye on their altitude, position, and traffic, and the crew chief was not doing traffic scans properly.