Author Topic: Midair Collision at Reagan International  (Read 1775 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2025, 04:50:14 PM »
Reportedly the army is refusing to release the ID of the pilot at the request of the family.
How unusual is this?

Shock as Army takes 'extraordinary step' over female Black Hawk pilot in DC plane crash: Live updates
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14346439/dc-plane-crash-victims-helicopter-pilot-latest-updates.html
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2025, 05:10:02 PM »
Here's Alex Jones
Bear in mind he tends to throw out, shall we say, crazy stuff from time to time to see if it sticks to the wall.

Quote
Alex Jones
@RealAlexJones
BREAKING UPDATE: Evidence Indicates That Backdoor Remote Control Technology Was Used To Ensure Tragic Helicopter / Airliner Crash In DC

» WATCH/SHARE THE LIVE X STREAM HERE:
https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1

https://x.com/RealAlexJones/status/1885421149539991749
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,914
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2025, 05:24:07 PM »
Here's Alex Jones
Bear in mind he tends to throw out, shall we say, crazy stuff from time to time to see if it sticks to the wall.

https://x.com/RealAlexJones/status/1885421149539991749

Ummmm, WTF, over.
Formerly sumpnz

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 49,133
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2025, 05:37:27 PM »
Here's Alex Jones
Bear in mind he tends to throw out, shall we say, crazy stuff from time to time to see if it sticks to the wall.

https://x.com/RealAlexJones/status/1885421149539991749

Relayed through drones off the NJ coast.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,165
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2025, 05:40:21 PM »
To be fair to Jones...

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/transportation-july-dec01-air-security_09-27

Quote
The president said new security measures would also dramatically increase the number of plainclothes federal marshals on airplanes, give $500 million to developing enhanced cockpit security and enable air traffic controllers to take over a distressed aircraft and land it by remote control.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2001/09/30/landing-planes-by-remote-control-is-possible-but-doesnt-fly-with-some-pilots/

Quote
“We will look at all kinds of technologies to make sure that our airlines are safe,” Bush said at O’Hare International Airport. “. . . including technology to enable controllers to take over distressed aircraft and land it by remote control.”

Bush did say it.

Not really sure ATC staff are actually qualified to fly everything on their radar screens.  But it was said.

No idea where we are on that initiative, 24 years later.  It appears the airline pilots association lobbied against it.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2025, 06:17:35 PM »
And here's AOC

Quote
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
I represent LaGuardia Airport as well as workers for JFK.

Trump gutted the Aviation Safety committee last week.

Air traffic controllers - already understaffed - got Trump’s “buyout” this week with a 1 week ultimatum to decide.

It’s not DEI - it’s him. And Elon too.
https://x.com/AOC/status/1885048064462716946

For the most part she is getting ripped a new one in the comments.
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2025, 07:06:27 PM »
The Bee gets it

Preliminary Report Confirms Tragedy Was The Fault Of Whichever Political Party You Don't Like
https://babylonbee.com/news/preliminary-report-confirms-tragedy-was-the-fault-of-whichever-political-party-you-dont-like
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2025, 07:44:01 PM »
Reportedly the army is refusing to release the ID of the pilot at the request of the family.
How unusual is this?

Shock as Army takes 'extraordinary step' over female Black Hawk pilot in DC plane crash: Live updates
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14346439/dc-plane-crash-victims-helicopter-pilot-latest-updates.html

Correction, it's the copilot they won't release the name of

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,119
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2025, 08:41:02 PM »
Shock as Army takes 'extraordinary step' over female Black Hawk pilot in DC plane crash: Live updates
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14346439/dc-plane-crash-victims-helicopter-pilot-latest-updates.html

Eaves is reported to be a CW2, so why does his photo show him wearing sergeant's stripes and no warrant officer insignia? Old (very) photo?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,355
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2025, 08:54:49 PM »
Eaves is reported to be a CW2, so why does his photo show him wearing sergeant's stripes and no warrant officer insignia? Old (very) photo?

Just a guess:

They dropped the requirement for a DA Photo as part of your promotion packet so the last time he was required to get an official photo was his Warrant Officer accession packet, coupled with he is eligible for CW2 after 2 years as W01. So that picture wouldn't necessarily be that old.

I'm not an Avaition WO so I have no idea how long t9 make PIC on the UH60 track, but he had likely been a WO for between 2 and 6 years. (7 years you make CW3)

230RN

  • I saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,603
  • But they're SUPPOSED to be "military-style."
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2025, 08:39:11 AM »
^ Thank you.  Yes it was very helpful to me to understand the general 3-dimensional situation. E.g., up till that clip I somehow thought the helo approached the plane from behind, which didn't "gell" in my mushy groundlubber brain.

His discussion and the "amplified" videos cleared that up for me: that it was actually more of a head-on collision.  Thanks again.

Terry, Iggerant Groundlubber, 230RN
« Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 08:59:07 AM by 230RN »

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,165
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2025, 10:35:07 AM »
I just had an interaction with Grok.com, an AI owned by Twitter/X, about this crash.  Questions about the differences between ADS-B and TCAS, and TA/RA warnings on low approach, and effect of ADS-B being disabled on TCAS functionality.  Posting here in total.

Quote from: me
If one aircraft has TCAS and another has ADS-B disabled, can the TCAS enabled aircraft detect the other aircraft?

Quote from: Grok
The Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) primarily uses transponder signals to detect other aircraft. Here's how it interacts with Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B):

    TCAS: Works by interrogating the transponders of nearby aircraft. If an aircraft has its transponder active, TCAS can detect it regardless of whether ADS-B is enabled or not. TCAS does not directly rely on ADS-B signals for its basic functionality.
    ADS-B: This system broadcasts an aircraft's position, altitude, and velocity to other aircraft and ground stations. While ADS-B enhances situational awareness, its status (enabled or disabled) does not affect the basic operation of TCAS.

Given this:

    If the aircraft with ADS-B disabled still has its transponder on (which is usually the case for air traffic control purposes), the TCAS-equipped aircraft should still be able to detect it because TCAS interrogates transponder signals, not ADS-B signals.
    However, if the aircraft has completely turned off its transponder along with ADS-B, then TCAS would not be able to detect it because there would be no transponder response to interrogate.

Therefore, yes, a TCAS-enabled aircraft can detect an aircraft with ADS-B disabled, provided the latter's transponder is still functioning and responding to TCAS interrogations. If the transponder is also off, then detection would not be possible through TCAS alone.

Quote from: me
Did the helicopter involved in the recent Reagan International Airport crash have its transponder, TCAS, and ADS-B systems enabled?

Quote from: Grok
Based on the available information:

    Transponder: The helicopter was equipped with a Mode S transponder, which was operational. This allowed it to be visible to air traffic controllers.

    TCAS: There is no explicit confirmation that the helicopter had TCAS enabled. It's worth noting that TCAS isn't typically mandatory for military helicopters like the Black Hawk involved in this incident.

    ADS-B: The helicopter was not broadcasting ADS-B signals. Several sources indicate that the ADS-B was not transmitting at the time of the crash.Thus, the helicopter had its transponder enabled, but it did not have ADS-B broadcasting, and there's no clear information confirming or denying the operation of TCAS on the helicopter.

Quote from: me
Should the Bombardier jet's TCAS have issued an alert, given the altitude on the jet's approach and the proximity of the helicopter?

Quote from: Grok
The functionality of the Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) on the Bombardier jet during its approach to Reagan International Airport would depend on several factors:

    Altitude: TCAS typically reduces or disables its alerts at low altitudes to minimize false alarms from ground clutter or nearby aircraft on the ground. At an altitude of about 400 feet, which was reported for the jet, TCAS might have been in a mode where it either provided fewer warnings or none at all due to the proximity to the ground.
    Proximity and Relative Position: TCAS uses transponder signals to detect other aircraft. If the helicopter's transponder was operational (as it was), the jet's TCAS should theoretically have detected it. However, the effectiveness of the alert would also depend on the relative positions of the two aircraft. If the helicopter was directly below or above the jet or in a blind spot relative to the jet's TCAS antenna, detection might have been compromised.
    Operational Mode: TCAS has different levels of operation (TA/RA - Traffic Advisory/Resolution Advisory). At low altitudes like during landing, TCAS might only provide Traffic Advisories (TAs) to alert pilots to the presence of traffic without suggesting maneuvers (Resolution Advisories or RAs), or it might not provide any alerts at all if configured to do so for landing approaches.

Given these considerations:

    Should have issued an alert? Under normal circumstances, if the helicopter was within the surveillance range of the jet's TCAS and not in a blind spot, a Traffic Advisory might have been expected. However, due to the low altitude, any alert might have been limited to a TA rather than an RA, or possibly no alert if the system was configured to inhibit alerts at such low altitudes.
    Why it might not have alerted?
        Low altitude approach settings might inhibit or reduce TCAS functionality.
        The helicopter could have been in a position where the jet's TCAS antenna did not have a clear line of sight, especially if the helicopter was below the jet or at a very close range where signal reflection or shadowing could occur.

In summary, while the jet's TCAS should have theoretically detected the helicopter if both were using operational transponders, the system's alert might not have been issued due to the jet's low altitude or suboptimal relative positioning of the aircraft. The exact performance of TCAS in this incident would be part of the National Transportation Safety Board's (NTSB) investigation.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,917
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2025, 02:13:02 PM »
One wonders if the helo blowing through the maximum altitude of 200 feet was a one off, pilot error  or whether the military routinely violated that airspace and just now got "caught".

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,929
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2025, 08:21:06 AM »
Just read that the Blackhawk was supposed to be taking an established path called "route 4" and was to stay under 200 feet.

The article said they were nearly a half mile off course and flying over 300ft.

The unnamed female was piloting, according to the article.

I guess we'll hear soon enough if this article is bs or not.

This was not from a mainstream source, but from an article based on information being posted on X.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 35,473
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2025, 08:25:55 AM »
“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
― William F. Buckley

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984

“Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.”
― James Randi

Live Life

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 638
  • Life is short ... Time flies ... So live life now
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2025, 08:34:25 AM »
One wonders if the helo blowing through the maximum altitude of 200 feet was a one off, pilot error  or whether the military routinely violated that airspace and just now got "caught".
There were many reported "close calls/near misses" setting off collision avoidance alarms or no alarms in recent past.

Pilots have reported repeated close calls similar to fatal collision near DC airport - https://apnews.com/article/dc-midair-collision-military-training-washington-airport-6f77fbc68a02d621e24f9ca9b29cb805

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,914
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2025, 08:54:46 AM »
Now named
28 year old captain
Work as an aide in the Bidern WH

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14350659/Black-Hawk-helicopter-Rebecca-Lobach-identified-DC-plane-crash.html

Sounded like she was copilot at the time.  PIC was the CW2.
Formerly sumpnz

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,490
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2025, 01:12:01 PM »
Just saw an article about the captain, saying she had iver 500 hours of stick time in the UH-60.  My favorite comment:  "How can the Army let someone with that little experience fly?  That's less than three weeks of experience!  That's criminal negligence!"

Well, I guess.  If you did nothing but fly 24 hours a day non stop, 500 hours would be around 21 days.  But since no one flies 24/7 for days in a row...

Anyone know how long it takes to rack up 500 horse of flight time?
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,165
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2025, 01:29:12 PM »

Anyone know how long it takes to rack up 500 horse of flight time?

Never seen a Blackhawk carry 500 horses.

I've heard of a C-130 carrying an elephant, once.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,355
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2025, 01:32:01 PM »
Just saw an article about the captain, saying she had iver 500 hours of stick time in the UH-60.  My favorite comment:  "How can the Army let someone with that little experience fly?  That's less than three weeks of experience!  That's criminal negligence!"

Well, I guess.  If you did nothing but fly 24 hours a day non stop, 500 hours would be around 21 days.  But since no one flies 24/7 for days in a row...

Anyone know how long it takes to rack up 500 horse of flight time?

It really depends.  There is a fair amount of flex in "how bad do you want to go fly" vs. "are you doing broadening assignments".  Commissioned officers are different than Warrants as well, as they are expected to do more regular army stuff to round out their experience.

Flight school is about 200 hrs, give or take, but they wouldn't all be on the -60.  The CPT is being reported as having 500hrs in the -60, not just total flight time.  Somewhere between 2 years(if she was just all about flying and nothing else) and 5 years (If she did PLT leader time, Captain's Carrer Course as resident, broadening assignments, etc) is probably likely for 500 flight hours. 

To be an O3 she had somewhere between 4 and 7-9 years time in service. Between her known assignment at the WH and assigned to the VIP Helicopter unit, I think we can assume her career was progressing at the fast end promotion wise.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,355
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2025, 01:32:40 PM »
Never seen a Blackhawk carry 500 horses.

I've heard of a C-130 carrying an elephant, once.

You gotta sling load them.  Helps if they are small too.

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,917
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2025, 01:34:31 PM »
Just saw an article about the captain, saying she had iver 500 hours of stick time in the UH-60.  My favorite comment:  "How can the Army let someone with that little experience fly?  That's less than three weeks of experience!  That's criminal negligence!"

Well, I guess.  If you did nothing but fly 24 hours a day non stop, 500 hours would be around 21 days.  But since no one flies 24/7 for days in a row...

Anyone know how long it takes to rack up 500 horse of flight time?

 It is a lot of hours -not comparable an airline pilot who has 10,000 hrs, but realize the helo time is going to be a lot of short duration flights.   The question would be currency- skills deteriorate if not used.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 49,133
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2025, 01:37:52 PM »
The question would be currency- skills deteriorate if not used.

This. It might turn out she was getting currency after having been at a desk job (as some stories allude) for a good while. You still have to keep some minimal currency to keep getting flight pay, I think, but "every six months" is a lot different than flying weekly.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,355
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2025, 01:47:13 PM »
It should be noted in all this talk that even if she was on the controls, CW2 Eaves was the pilot in command, and the safety of that Helicopter, it's crew, and other aircraft were his responsibility.  It's also CW2 Eaves (or at least a guy) on the radio with ATC saying they see the jet and will maintain separation.

Since it's clear already from transponder data that the Blackhawk was out of it's flight corridor, over it's allowed altitude and the whole crew missed seeing a jet with it's landing lights on, I think we can safely say there was a more systemic breakdown in that cockpit than one CPT who may (or may not) have been out of practice.

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,804
Re: Midair Collision at Reagan International
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2025, 01:50:02 PM »
This. It might turn out she was getting currency after having been at a desk job (as some stories allude) for a good while. You still have to keep some minimal currency to keep getting flight pay, I think, but "every six months" is a lot different than flying weekly.

In the Navy as aircrew we had to fly 12 hours a quarter to keep our flight pay. Most guys on shore duty and flight status would hop on a real world tactical flight and log their 12 hours for the quarter in one flight, and they were essentially passengers. We would occasionally get a ride along pilot and they would get stick time. Our wing Commander would fly with the squadrons occasionally but they had to be watched like a hawk, they did the bare minimums to keep flight pay.

NATO pilots are required to fly 180 hours a year. I don't know if that applies to Conus or helo pilots or if they have other requirements or not.

bob